The Dormie Club (Coore/Crenshaw) - A Photo Tour - All 18 Posted

[Mark Saltzman]

Club Information (taken from http://dormieclub.net/the-club/):

Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw’s first original layout in the Tar Heel State is just a short drive north of the Village of Pinehurst where they recently completed the restoration of the Pinehurst Resort’s storied No. 2 course. In 2014, No. 2 will make history as the first ever site to host the Men’s and Women’s United States Open Championships in back-to-back weeks.

The renowned architectural team of Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw selected 309 of the site’s 1,030 acres to route 18 magical holes. There will be no housing or artificial roadways within the golf course perimeter.

The par 71 course can play 6,984 yards, but has only 68 acres of managed grass. The balance of the site is maintained in natural sand “floors”, wire grasses, pine trees and vegetation native to the Sandhills region.


Scorecard Information





Hole 1: Par 4, 433 Yards

The 1st hole is no easy start.  The opening tee shot is one of the most demanding on the course - playing downhill and into the prevailing wind, there is plenty that can go wrong.  

The ideal tee shot will be played up the left side of the fairway, which will leave a clearer look at the green.  The ideal line is guarded by fairway bunkers and there is a fair bit of room to bailout right.  The centreline bunkers are about 320 yards from the tee -- not in play for all but a select few.




The approach is played over a pair of diagonal centreline bunkers whose purpose (I think) are more about visual intimidation and confusion, than penalizing errant shots.  Approaches from the left side of the fairway have a preferred view of the green, though perhaps the more difficult angle, depending on pin position.

Approach from right side of fairway.




Approach from left side of fairway.




The green is open in front allowing shots to run onto the green.  It is difficult to see but there is a very large ridge running through the left side of the green that feeds shots towards the centre.  The right portion of the green is flat and welcoming.




Looking back down the fairway.





Hole 2: Par 4, 402 Yards

The first of many holes that move left at Dormie.  Longer hitters will be able to carry the majority of the bunker on the inside of the dogleg (about 250 yards carry) and will be rewarded with both a shorter approach and a better angle.  Shorter hitters can try to hit a draw and take advantage of the significant leftward slope of the fairway.






The approach is played slightly uphill to a green that falls-off on the left.  A single greenside bunker highlights the importance of the angle into the green.  Tee shots that challenge the inside of the dogleg need not carry the bunker on the approach and can be run onto the green.  But, approaches from the right must carry the bunker and also run a greater risk of finding the fall-off on the left.




The fall-off to the left of the green.




Hole 3: Par 4, 316 Yards

A very good hole.  There is LOTS of room to lay-up a tee shot short of the bunker on the right.  It is about 210 yards to reach that bunker.  Players wanting to be more aggressive may challenge the left side of the fairway, leaving just a pitch into the green.






Approach from a lay-up.




Approach from in the right bunker.




Approach from left.





All decisions on this hole, and much of what makes the hole so interesting, is the wildness of the green.  Even with the flattening effect of the camera, the slopes look significant.  Local knowledge is very important here as there are putts that are impossible.  Anything over the ridge to the pin in the picture could not possibly get closer than 15 feet. Fine with me -- other less GCA-inclined members of my group didn't like that.  

Green from right.




Green from back-right.




Green from back-right with increased contrast.




Short of green with increased contrast.

[Jackson C]

I particularly like the first hole.  Tee shot is not intimidating as there is a lot of fairway.  However it really favors a long shot to the left.  The further right you hit it, and the tee box tends to line you up to the right, the further you end from the hole.  Still the hole gives you a chance to get up in down in two (once you've cleared the bunkers) including playing a running shot into the green.   Hole plays uphill as well once you get to the fairway.  I think this is one of the best holes on the course and very good opening hole.

[Mac Plumart]

The Dormie is a real treat.  I can't wait for the rest of the photos.

The 3rd green is incredible fun to play.

[Jim Tang]

Mark -

Great pictures!  I look forward to seeing more of the course as I've never been there. 

To me, the turf looks rather firm.  How would you describe the playing characteristics of the turf out there?

[Andy Troeger]

Looking forward to this thread as I played it a few weeks ago for the first time and made my top ten. I'll disagree a bit with Jackson in that I thought the first (and second) were among the weakest on the course. That said, they get the round off and are pretty good openers that shouldn't cause too many big numbers unless you smash it into the trees--the fairways are wide enough to hopefully avoid that. The rest of the course just gets more thoughtful IMO.

Really like the 3rd though--great green that requires a thoughtful approach. I'd be curious at 315 yards uphill if any bombers try to drive the green. I wouldn't enjoy the 40 yard pitch that would be left if I hit a good drive, so its a layup for me.

[Frank M]

How did you get down there?

[Mark Saltzman]

Andy,

I agree the first two holes (especially the 2nd) do not rank among my favorite, though you said it perfectly -- they get the round started and there's certainly nothing to hate.

I really like 3 as well, though what you wrote syncs well with the thread I started about 14 and 15. There's several options but really only one that ever makes sense. I wonder if others feel the same way.

Frank,
Half of us drove the other half flew out of Buffalo. It took about 13 hours to drive. The flight out of buffalo was really cheap though -- $279 tax in.

[Bart Bradley]

Andy,

I agree the first two holes (especially the 2nd) do not rank among my favorite, though you said it perfectly -- they get the round started and there's certainly nothing to hate.

I really like 3 as well, though what you wrote syncs well with the thread I started about 14 and 15. There's several options but really only one that ever makes sense. I wonder if others feel the same way.

Frank,
Half of us drove the other half flew out of Buffalo. It took about 13 hours to drive. The flight out of buffalo was really cheap though -- $279 tax in.

Mark, I was able to go out to Dormie quite early on.  Due to some constraints on construction and environmental protection, they had to build the course a few holes at a time.  On my first visit, I was able to play holes 4,12,15, 16, 17 and 18.  Please put yourself in my place having just seen those 6 holes only.  Then zoom forward and play again starting with these 3 holes.  I do like the 3rd green.  But these holes are the weakest section of the course.  They were built last.  I honestly feel that the trials and tribulations during the construction of the course caused these last holes (holes 1-3) to receive less than full attention, even if that was subconscious.  Dormie is very good course.  I wonder given different economic times, different leadership, etc if it wouldn't have turned out even better.  I will go back to Dormie again and hopefully soon, but I will always wonder how things might have been even better.  The property has some limitations (wetlands) but it has so much variety in terrain, sandy soil, natural water features, hardwoods, pines...it is a beautiful canvas. 

Bart

[Craig Disher]

Mark, I was able to go out to Dormie quite early on.  Due to some constraints on construction and environmental protection, they had to build the course a few holes at a time.  On my first visit, I was able to play holes 4,12,15, 16, 17 and 18.  Please put yourself in my place having just seen those 6 holes only.  Then zoom forward and play again starting with these 3 holes.  I do like the 3rd green.  But these holes are the weakest section of the course.  They were built last.  I honestly feel that the trials and tribulations during the construction of the course caused these last holes (holes 1-3) to receive less than full attention, even if that was subconscious.  Dormie is very good course.  I wonder given different economic times, different leadership, etc if it wouldn't have turned out even better.  I will go back to Dormie again and hopefully soon, but I will always wonder how things might have been even better.  The property has some limitations (wetlands) but it has so much variety in terrain, sandy soil, natural water features, hardwoods, pines...it is a beautiful canvas. 

Bart

Bart,
What features on 1-3 make you think that they received less than full attention?

[Mark Saltzman]

To me, the turf looks rather firm.  How would you describe the playing characteristics of the turf out there?

Jim,

I've only played the course twice (in one day) so my sample size is very small, but the course played sort of F&F.  The greens were quite quick, probably as quick as they would ever want them for non-tournament play.  The ground was firm, shots could be run onto the green, but they certainly didn't have to (in fact one guy in my group kept spinning shots off of the greens).  Fairways ran out as well.  But, the course played nowhere near as fast as the courses I played in the Chop Hills / Sand Hills. 

It was considerably more F&F than #2, though.

[Jim Tang]

Mark -

Thus far in your photo tour, the greens are open in front, allowing, as you say earlier, guys to skip the ball in low.  Are most of the greens this way or is there some frontal bunkering later on?

Also, which did you like better, Dormie or # 2?

[Mark Saltzman]

Mark -

Thus far in your photo tour, the greens are open in front, allowing, as you say earlier, guys to skip the ball in low.  Are most of the greens this way or is there some frontal bunkering later on?

Also, which did you like better, Dormie or # 2?

Jim,

Most greens are open in front.  The ones that aren't:
4 (though you can funnel the ball onto the green using a slope on the left),
7 (though it plays a bit like a reverse-redan and you can run it on using the slope on the left),
9 (it is open in front but you can't really run the ball onto this pushup green),
12

Dormie or #2? -- Splitting 10 rounds I would play Dormie 7-3.  #2 is great, but it's also very difficult.  I had much more fun playing Dormie.

[Andy Troeger]

Jim,
There are a few holes later, especially two par fives (#6 and 10) that really encourage a ground approach and the greens in both cases slope from front to back. There are a number of slopes to the sides of greens that the player can use to get the ball close to the hole or that will take the ball away.

Mark,
I agree with your 7-3 split in favor of Dormie, both are great but Dormie would be more fun to play regularly.

[Jim Tang]

Mark and Andy -

Thanks guys.  I like the idea of using slopes to feed the ball toward hole locations.

I'm looking forward to more pictures.  I like what I see so far.

[Jackson C]

At least 8 to 2 for #2.  This is a reflection on the greatness of #2, especially after the restoration.

Dormie felt somewhat disjointed, some long walks, transition to different terrains, which as a whole made the course less memorable.
It definitely has some memorable holes, but it didn't flow well for me.
Really hard to put but a few courses up against #2.  
Dormie grass and greens also seemed not yet well established at this point in its young life -- not too surprising however.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Mark (or anyone else)

to assist in a sense of scale - can estimate the height of the trees - they look of a reasonably consistent stature, wanting to compare them with PV, the Dormie Clubs do not appear at full maturity>??

[Jud_T]

The course looks very cool, but I haven't seen anyone directly address whether C&C was ever able to do the finish work originally proposed and how this manifests itself in the course's presentation.

[Andy Troeger]

Jud,
I wasn't really looking for that, but generally I didn't find it noticeable. I'm not even sure what "finish work" that includes. The one potential exception was that there are a number of tree stumps still present in cleared out areas that I'm guessing would have been removed had time/money allowed. The area between #2 tee and fairway is one example of where I noticed that. It doesn't affect play at all and is of pretty minimal importance at least for my enjoyment of the course.

[Jim Franklin]

I would go 7-3 #2 if given 10 rounds. But if I had to choose one to play the rest of my life, I would go with Dormie because it is more playable and I would shoot better scores. Both are terrific though.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 4: Par 4, 440 Yards

This might be my favorite hole on the course. The hole sweeps significantly from right to left (no surprise there).  The hole feels very natural on the land as the favorite dips and rises and slopes significantly to the left.  Anything bailed-out too far to the right (it's a pretty long way right) will find some of the scrub/sand.  In my limited experience you can be farther right than you think because of the slope of the fairway.  Players that are too aggressive off the tee can find a hidden bunker guarding the inside corner of the dogleg.

The view from the back tee just hints at the shape of the hole, but it is a largely blind tee shot.




From the white tees one gets a clear look at the entirety of the hole, and a very nice vista of the green and water beyond.




The approach should be nothing more than a short-iron or pitch, despite the length of the hole.  After a draw was called-for off the tee, the second is best played with a little fade.  Though there is no option to run the ball onto the green as a bunker and false-front protect the front of the green, shots can be played using the slope to the left of the green.




The green slopes very significantly from left to right. The location of the short greenside bunker is nasty -- one shouldn't find the bunker this far short of the green, but if they do they are faced with a bunker shot that requires a long carry to reach the green and a false-front that will funnel bulls off the green.




There is not a lot of internal contour on the 4th green, but more importantly there is some counterslope on the right side of the green that will protect balls using the slope to the left from running off the green.





Hole 5: Par 4, 435 Yards

The tee shot is more visually intimidating than difficult.  It is only about 200 yards to carry the water on the longest line.  Still, I'm told, the middle tees are often moved to the other side of the hazard making this play as a sub 300-yard par 4.  Ideally tee shots will be played up the left side of the fairway, though there is no large advantage.




The approach is fairly straightforward.  The green is open in front and guarded only by a couple of bunkers to the right.  The green slopes generally from front-left to back-right and calls for a shot to be landed short of the green.  As I recall there is a significant ridge bisecting the green into front and back sections and a large hump on the right side of the green complicating putts that are played from the wrong side of the ridge.





Hole 6: Par 5, 532 Yards

Width!  This fairway must be 100 yards wide.  Though it isn't obvious, the ideal line is just inside the right edge of the bunker (about a 230 yard carry).  Players not willing the challenge the bunker have the option of playing up the left.  The hole feels like it should play very long, once the player crests the hill it is downhill all the way and will be within reach in two for many players.






Tee shots played up the right side of the fairway will not have to deal with a pesky (cleverly-placed) bunker 50 yards short of the green.




Now this is a green that begs for the ground game.  It is wide open in front and slopes significantly from front-to-back.  Playing from 250 yards out, my caddie said I should play a 210 yard shot and let the ball trundle down to the green -- once the ball gets on the green it's amazing how fast it is.  The front pin pictured looks easy, but in fact may be the most difficult.




Interesting and nasty scar bunkers left and long of the green.

[Andy Troeger]

Mark,
Good description of 4-6. I agree that the 4th might be the best hole on the course, although I also really like #10 (perhaps the best long par five I've seen outside of Pine Valley). The fourth green has some major tilt left to right, reminded me a bit of #5 at Crystal Downs greensite, but I've only seen each course once so I'm not sure if that's a true comparison or if I made it up.

[Mark Saltzman]

Thanks, Andy.  Does the tee shot at the 5th look at all like the tee shot on 15(?) at Pine Valley?  I've never been, just curious.

[Andy Troeger]

Perhaps a little bit. I think the carry at Dormie is a little longer and the angle left to right seems to be a little more pronounced. Dormie might have a little more visual width, although I don't think it plays any wider. At #15 at PV, the hole is barely getting started once you hit your drive, whereas with the Dormie hole it gets a little less fearsome on the approach.

[John Shimp]

Really nice photos.  By the way Dormie can play really hard with careful pin positions and good green speeds.  There was a ijgt jr event a week ago and only one kid broke 150 in 36 holes.  Several of the kids are plus handicappers that are spectacular players. I bring this up to contradict anyone who might conclude that this course is easy due to width or whatever. 

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 7: Par 3, 243 Yards

After making the confusing walk from the 6th green to the 7th tee, you are faced with the most difficult shot of the day (thus far).  The hole plays in the same direction as the 6th, meaning it should be downwind, but at over 240 yards (still over 200 yards from the middle tee), this hole is far from a gimme.

This hole really looks like a reverse-redan. Significant bunkering guarding short and right of the green, combined with the rightward tilt of the land to the left of the green, encourage the use of a fade off the left-side slopes.








The bunkers short and right of the green are very deep and are not a very good spot to miss.  Still, it may be better to miss here than left as you are blasting into the slope of the green.  Also notice the bit of counterslope on the leftmost part of the green.




A view from the slope on the left.  OK, so here's my issue, the slope flattens out (and even counterslopes) right by the green.  This means that shots played to the left will trundle to the green's edge, but will not go much farther.  I don't know if this was by intent or was a mistake, but I would prefer to see shots that use the slope on the left have the opportunity to get all the way to the centre of the green.




Internal contouring on the 7th green is fairly tame.