[Sean_A]

I think the playability of the native grasses just off the fairway will be managed over time through maintenance and just plain foot traffic. It certainly won't be as stark a contrast in a couple of years time as it is now 7 months before opening.

Ally

I hope you are correct, but I reckon foot traffic isn't going to be the answer.  Every course I know with fairways running through high dunes suffers the same problem.  Its not easy to create width with dunes constricting play and its not easy to use the scythe.

Ciao

[Adam Clayman]

I'm with Patrick and Joel, on this, BECAUSE, until you play it, or walk it, how do you know what the routing is like?

It is interesting that not one bunker appears to be of the natural looking variety. Reminds me, in some pics, of the Fazio butcher job on the #4 at Pinehurst.

[Garland Bayley]

...
It is interesting that not one bunker appears to be of the natural looking variety. ...

You were expecting a natural look?

I have to refer you to Jud's post.








 

[Kalen Braley]

Going only off these pictures, it looks like they did a lot of flattening in some of the fairways/surrounds, which may be part of what people are reacting to. 

CArl,

I've intentionally stayed out of this thread until now, because I may have been too opionated in the last thread.....but that's pretty much what jumped out at me when looking at this pics.  While some holes seems to have a decent amount of undulation, many of them appear relatively flattish in relation to their surrounds.  Hopefully this is just the camera which has a tendency to flatten things out.

[Sean Leary]

Going only off these pictures, it looks like they did a lot of flattening in some of the fairways/surrounds, which may be part of what people are reacting to. 

CArl,

I've intentionally stayed out of this thread until now, because I may have been too opionated in the last thread.....but that's pretty much what jumped out at me when looking at this pics.  While some holes seems to have a decent amount of undulation, many of them appear relatively flattish in relation to their surrounds.  Hopefully this is just the camera which has a tendency to flatten things out.

Or it was flattish between the dunes to start with...

[Niall C]

I'm with Patrick and Joel, on this, BECAUSE, until you play it, or walk it, how do you know what the routing is like?

It is interesting that not one bunker appears to be of the natural looking variety. Reminds me, in some pics, of the Fazio butcher job on the #4 at Pinehurst.

Adam

I don't know if you were expecting or looking for the hairy lip style of bunkering that RCD is famous for and which has been the vogue on a lot of new courses for the last several years, if so I would suggest that the style here is more in keeping with the local vernacular.

Niall

[Tom ORourke]

There are two things that strike me. One is that it can be difficult to judge the scale from photos. Some of the dunes may be extremely impressive. It is tough to judge their height, or the widths of the fairways. The second is the look of some of the greens. When you see courses like Barnbougle, Lost Farm, Bandon Dunes, Old Mac and Ballyneal the greens seem to lay on the fairway, or have a gradual rise from the fairway. A few of these greens have a bit of a built up look. It looks like the ground game may be out of play for a few of the holes, which may make it look a little more manufactured as opposed to just finding green sites and putting in flags. I don't think there is anything wrong with requiring that on some holes. I think it looks interesting. I also think a mediocre golfer may play it once and realize he is out of his league. I know The Donald will tell us that some people think it is the best course in the world, and others will slough it off. I would love to know the return rate. How many people come back more than once. That will tell me how good it is.

[Niall C]

Tom

Alternatively the return rate might just tell you how expensive it is !

As for a mediocre golfer, I really don't get that comment. Carnoustie is the hardest course I know but a 20 handicapper could get round it no problem. They probably wouldn't get anywhere near there handicap but they could still play the course.

Niall

[Simon Holt]

Niall,

This may be true for the 20 handicapper but would they have any fun?  Some would say I am ok at this silly game we love but I dont 'enjoy' Carnoustie.

I loved Pine Valley but I know some 20 handicappers that may not be able to finish some of the holes there while truly enjoying it.

Its an interesting debate as many of courses we all give praise to actually go against what many on the site champion in terms of playability for all.

S

[Tom ORourke]

I mentioned that it is difficult to tell the fairway widths from photos, but I can see a lot of balls being lost on those dunes by even an average golfer unaccustomed to playing in what may be some pretty good breezes. Combine the wind with the intimidation factor of the  dunes and I can see a few sleeves of balls coming out. Maybe the dunes will cut down the breeze, but the grass on some of those dunes look like lost balls to me. I do like what I see. And I have talked to some good players who have been back to Pine Hill now that it is Trump Philly and they thought he did an excellent job there from the course to the clubhouse. I would not be shocked if his team did some good work on the International.

[Carl Nichols]

Going only off these pictures, it looks like they did a lot of flattening in some of the fairways/surrounds, which may be part of what people are reacting to. 

CArl,

I've intentionally stayed out of this thread until now, because I may have been too opionated in the last thread.....but that's pretty much what jumped out at me when looking at this pics.  While some holes seems to have a decent amount of undulation, many of them appear relatively flattish in relation to their surrounds.  Hopefully this is just the camera which has a tendency to flatten things out.

Or it was flattish between the dunes to start with...

Sean:
These are more than "flattish," they're bowling alley flat spaces, at least from the pics. 

[Kalen Braley]

Before:




After:

[Tim Pitner]

Understanding that you can't really tell from photos, the course looks like a brute. 

[Garland Bayley]

...
I loved Pine Valley but there is no way a 20 handicapper could finish some of the holes there.
...

My handicap is over 20. Why could I not "finish some of the holes there"?

[Sean Leary]

Before:




After:

That is WAY too severe to be left anything close to that for a fairway. With that narrow a of a fairway ( I am sure the pic makes it look narrower than it is), subtle undulations are going to be better IMO.

Also, looks to me like if the native is that sparse like in the bottom of your picture, that balls will be very easy to find..

[Garland Bayley]

That is WAY too severe to be left anything close to that for a fairway. With that narrow a of a fairway ( I am sure the pic makes it look narrower than it is), subtle undulations are going to be better IMO.

Also, looks to me like if the native is that sparse like in the bottom of your picture, that balls will be very easy to find..

Those familiar have stated that the pic makes it look narrower than it is. Why is it WAY too severe? Reminds me of pics from Durban and Eastward Ho. I am guessing it is not even way too severe, at most a little too severe.

[Sean Leary]

Garland,

Both courses have
much more room left and right that you see here on holes that have this much movement. Balls would be kicking into the native from the middle of the fairway.

[Garland Bayley]

Sean,

This is a valley. The slopes are kicking towards the center.

[Niall C]

I've said it before but the problem won't be going left and right, it will be reaching the fairway. And I include for the low handicappers in that comment. Looking at that last photo, the carry distance looks as though it might be 150 yards plus which on an elevated tee with a good going breeze in you face will be a hell of a challenge.

Niall

[Tom Kelly]

Also, looks to me like if the native is that sparse like in the bottom of your picture, that balls will be very easy to find..

The area you point out on that picture will be one of the many areas where they planted more marram grass to stabilise the dunes. They did that in alot of places, but the areas where they didn't and there was already marram grass will be far thicker, most of the site was made up of areas like this. I also doubt it will take long for the planted areas to become as thick as the other established areas. Finding balls in that stuff will be next to impossible.

[Simon Holt]

...
I loved Pine Valley but there is no way a 20 handicapper could finish some of the holes there.
...

My handicap is over 20. Why could I not "finish some of the holes there"?

Garland- I have changed my post as you rightly jumped on a quickly typed and poorly worded post on my behalf.

I stand by what I say that if a high handicapper went there they could well think some of the holes near impossible due to the forced carries, therefore not have as much fun as a lower handicapper.  Some would leave not really appreciating the course but that happens everywhere I suppose.

Thanks,

Simon

[Garland Bayley]

...
I loved Pine Valley but there is no way a 20 handicapper could finish some of the holes there.
...

My handicap is over 20. Why could I not "finish some of the holes there"?

Garland- I have changed my post as you rightly jumped on a quickly typed and poorly worded post on my behalf.

I stand by what I say that if a high handicapper went there they could well think some of the holes near impossible due to the forced carries, therefore not have as much fun as a lower handicapper.  Some would leave not really appreciating the course but that happens everywhere I suppose.

Thanks,

Simon

Glad to be of assistance. Ponds are a killjoy for me. Maybe if I didn't use a ball retriever to fish balls out of ponds to replenish my supply, then they wouldn't try to return to what they assume to be their natural habitat.

[Tim Nugent]

Before:




After:

Kaylan, I would have loved to see this hole built with only a tractor.  If this would have been left realively as-is and maybe just smoothed but with all the undulations, it would have generated more buzz than what is there now.  But, alas, I'm sure that would have been too radical for the parties involved. (see #17 Crystal Downs in the other thread).

What struck me, and surprised no one here has said anything about it is what I call "vetoed Bunkers". These are grass bunkers that just look like they were originally meant to be sand bunkers before someone "vetoed" the sand and converted the aready shaped bunker to grass.

[Jay Flemma]

That landscape is insane.

Does anyone else think the architecture appears to be kind of oddly in between American-style and traditional links? I can't quite put my finger on it.

I agree...the mounding looks kinda manufactured...so does the shaping...

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