[Bill Brightly]

Macdonald
National
The Creek
Sleepy Hollow

Doak
Barnbougle Dunes
Old Macdonald
Pacific Dunes
Cape Kidnappers
Stone Eagle
Beechwood

Banks
Essex County
Hackensack
Forsgate
The Knoll
Castle Harbor
Rock Spring

Raynor
Yale
CC of Charleston
Cold Spring
Metairie
Morris County

Tillinghast
Ridgewood
Winged Foot West
Somerset Hills
Bethpage Black
Baltustrol Upper
Baltustrol Lower
Alpine
Old Oaks
Grossingers
Shawnee

Ross
Mountain Ridge
Plainfield
Pinehurst #2
Misquamicut
Aronomink
Seaview Bay course
Pine Needles
Crestmont
Rockland
Southern Pines
Mid Pines
Knickerbocker
Wampanoag

Flynn
Shinnecock
Atlantic City
Naval Academy

Travis
Garden City
Westchester
Hollywood
Canoe Brook
White Beeches
Spring Brook
North Jersey

William Gordon
Weyhill at Saucon Valley
Saucon Valley Grace
Stanwich

Pete Dye
Ocean Course
TP at Sawgrass
Harbor Town
Pauite
PGA Golf Club, Port St. Lucie
Harbourtowne, MD
River Course at Kingsmill
PGA West

[Mark Saltzman]

Tillinghast
Ridgewood


Ross
Mountain Ridge

Bill,

You just jumped these courses to the top of courses I need to see.  If MR is better than #2 and Plainfield, I need to see it. 

[Bill Brightly]

I guess you do need to see Mountain Ridge I love Plainfield, it's best holes are slightly better than MR's, but I think I drop Plainfield slightly below MR because of the 3 hole stretch 13-14-15, which don't quite fit. Mountain Ridge has one hole that does not fit: #7, and it has the best opening hole I can think of. I need to see #2 after the re-do.

Ridgewood has the best set of par 5's I have ever played, especially if you play the composite course. I guess I put it ahead of Winged Foot because I know it so much better, or maybe because I found Winged Foot so HARD. But it is a very close call.

[Mark Saltzman]

I guess you do need to see Mountain Ridge I love Plainfield, it's best holes are slightly better than MR's, but I think I drop Plainfield slightly below MR because of the 3 hole stretch 13-14-15, which don't quite fit.
 

Bill,

I've only played PCC once, but that stretch of holes, from 13-15 is what made me start this thread: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49954.0.html

The tee shot on 13 is interesting.  With the OB right and the diagonal ridge (which I believe was an addition in the restoration) it fits with the course.  But the stretch from the second shot on 13 and all of 14 is certainly the worst part of the course.  My caddie said the 15th now, post restoration, is a much better hole than it used to be.  I think it is a good hole, too, and don't know what it looked like a few years back.  Have you played it post-reno?

[Bill Brightly]

No, I have not played it post renovation. Have they added length to 15? I know they were trying to acquire some land behind the tee. Thirteen is a fine hole, but I just think it does not quite fit with the rest of the course. I believe those holes were added after Ross built the course, right? Was 15 always part of the original design?

I also take a few points away from Plainfield because while 18 is a nice little par 4, I never felt it was a strong closing hole. I'd like to play it after the pond and trees have been removed. However, I just think a 5 wood-wedge closing hole is less than ideal. Mountain Ridge's 18th is a helluva test, a big sweeping dogleg right with a treacherous green. I also take points away from that one, at the risk of getting buried in green ink, because today's green speeds are too severe for the pitch of the green, but it certainly is a dramatic closing hole.

[Michael George]

Mark:

First, some questions about your rankings.  I was surprised not to see Gozzer Ranch in the Fazio top 3.  I have talked to people that think it is his best and certainly comparable with Wade Hampton and Victoria National.    Also, what were your thoughts on Mountaintop.  It seems you have an affinity for mountain golf.

Franklin Hills over Pinehurst #2?  I have heard Franklin Hills is good, but that good?  Pinehurst #2 must be pre-reno?

What were your thoughts on Bull at Pinehurst Farms?  Worth a stop in between Kohler and Erin Hills?
Also, what were your thoughts on Reynolds - worth a trip?

Lastly, if you were doing a Pinehurst trip, give me your long weekend of golf.

I see in your list a glaring hole of Ohio golf.  Let me know if you ever want to correct that. 

[Kyle Henderson]

Tom Doak (

1. Ballyneal
2. Rock Creek
3. Sebonack

Pacific Dunes not in my top three?  That's an outlier of a viewpoint, especially from someone who hasn't played Barnbougle, either.

Then again, I wouldn't agree with your top choices for Nicklaus or Fazio or Dye, either, Mark.

Sir Doak,
Pac Dunes comes in exactly third, as I rank experienced Renaissance Design courses, but I have a lot left to see.

Ballyneal                                                                               
Barnbougle Dunes                                                                           
Pacific Dunes                                                                         
St. Andrews  Beach – Gunnamatta                         
Stone Eagle

My top pick from the Nicklaus courses I've seen is the same as Mark's, but (again) I have much to see. Does anyone challenge Muirfield Village's supremacy in his body of work (aside from those that label it a Muirhead design)?
           
Dismal River                                                                                     
Mayacama
Old Greenwood 
Sherwood CC                                                                                                                               
Palmilla (Ocean, Arroyo)                                                             
Diablo Grande (Legends)   

[Andy Troeger]

Pete Dye:
1. Pete Dye GC
2. The Golf Club
3. TPC Sawgrass
4. Blackwolf Run River
5. The Honors Course
(23 total including Whistling Straits, Oak Tree, Crooked Stick, Long Cove, Harbour Town, etc.)

Jack Nicklaus:
1. Muirfield Village
2. Castle Pines
3. Valhalla
4. Sherwood
5. Shoal Creek
(out of 30--not including Harbour Town)

Tom Fazio--perhaps the toughest to order because a lot of these are very close. I think the first two create some separation from the others, but Fazio has a lot of stuff in the Doak 7 range.
1. Gozzer Ranch
2. Victoria National
3. The Alotian
4. Shooting Star
5. Dallas National
(24 total including World Woods, Karsten Creek, Eagle Point, Forest Creek, Estancia, Whisper Rock, Aldarra, Glenwild, Butler National, Flint Hills)

[Mac Plumart]

Does anyone challenge Muirfield Village's supremacy in his body of work (aside from those that label it a Muirhead design)?
           
Dismal River                                                                                     
Mayacama
Old Greenwood 
Sherwood CC                                                                                                                               
Palmilla (Ocean, Arroyo)                                                             
Diablo Grande (Legends)   

I've heard good things about May River...but have yet to play it.

[Mark Saltzman]

Mark:

First, some questions about your rankings.  I was surprised not to see Gozzer Ranch in the Fazio top 3.  I have talked to people that think it is his best and certainly comparable with Wade Hampton and Victoria National.    Also, what were your thoughts on Mountaintop.  It seems you have an affinity for mountain golf.

Franklin Hills over Pinehurst #2?  I have heard Franklin Hills is good, but that good?  Pinehurst #2 must be pre-reno?

What were your thoughts on Bull at Pinehurst Farms?  Worth a stop in between Kohler and Erin Hills?
Also, what were your thoughts on Reynolds - worth a trip?

Lastly, if you were doing a Pinehurst trip, give me your long weekend of golf.

I see in your list a glaring hole of Ohio golf.  Let me know if you ever want to correct that. 

Michael,

Interesting questions - no doubt I'm a GCA nerd (and a list guy) since I love to think about this stuff.

1) Gozzer.  I've heard the same thing, many people I talk to say that Gozzer is exceptional - certainly top 100 world and on par with anything else Fazio has done.  I'll accept that -- I didn't see it -- but there are times when I accept that I am likely wrong and the majority are right.  Gozzer would make my Fazio top 10 for sure, and maybe top 5, but I just didn't see it as being phenomenal.  Too many holes where blah and not enough holes were great.  On top of that the routing was awkward and unwalkable and the greens were a bit bland.  The par 5s as a group are very forgettable.  The par 3s are very strong, but the 14th(?), a short par-3, felt like filler.  The route to the tee is difficult and across a road and I think the hole would have worked better if Fazio was willing to make it a very short par-3 (sub-130 yards).  The routing would have been more comfortable and I think he could have been bolder with that green.  The views are great, though.

2) Mountaintop. The course is good, maybe very good, but probably not great.  It was ranked in the top-25 modern by GW -- I don't see it quite that high, but no doubt it is top 100.  The course really does not have a single weak hole and on repeat plays I expect I would like it more and more -- certainly worth visiting if able.  I have pictures and will post them at some point.

3) Franklin Hills is exceptional.  It is overshadowed by Oakland Hills, but given the option I'd play FH 8-2 in 10 rounds (and I am a much bigger fan of OH than most on this site -- my favorite set of greens, ever).  Ground for golf? Hell yeah! The land is perfect.  Constant elevation changes, but they are over gentle rolls rather than severe slopes.  The par 3s as a set are among the best I've played.  Again, not a single weak hole.  The opener is among the very best I have ever played (and a serious ball-buster).  The 13th is one of my favorite sub-300 yard holes.  No hazards but I bet there are way more 6s than 3s.  And I have played #2 post-renovation -- it wouldn't have made my top-5 Ross courses before that.

4) The Bull - played it several years ago, can't help much.  I don't remember any of it, though, so perhaps that's an indication.  Hopefully others can help.

5) Reynolds - Probably not worth the trip golf-wise, though the Ritz Carlton resort was really nice.  My big regret is not playing Cuscowilla when I was in the area.

6) Pinehurst Trip (which I just got back from) - here's what I did, though not all exactly in the Pinehurst area and it includes a few private courses: Charlotte CC, Carolina GC, Dormie Club, Pinehurst 2, 8, Old Town Club.  I loved all of them except #8.  I would happily repeat that itinerary, but I would substitute out #8 for #1, Pine Needles or Tobacco Road.

7) Ohio Golf - I would absolutely love to play some Ohio golf, the only course I've played in the state is Inverness.  Hopefully we can find a time next year.

[Andy Troeger]

Mark,
I'm surprised you found the par fives at Gozzer to be forgettable. I liked the 8th and especially the 10th a lot. #2 is nothing special, and #16 is a bit too short although I like the concept with the bunker in the right-center of the fairway. Unfortunately I went left (safe) and short of it and still easily reached in two. I tend to agree the transition 13/14 is a bit odd and the hole seems a bit out of place too.

[Mark Saltzman]

Andy,

I have zero recollection of 8 -- what does it look like.

[Bart Bradley]

Mark:

I like Mountaintop but the routing there is certainly confusing and certainly unwalkable, don't you think? 

Bart

[Andy Troeger]

Mark,
If you view the photos in the slideshow, two of them are of #8. Its a longish downhill par five through a chute of trees. The hole turns left after the drive with some cross bunkers to be negotiated. It would be tough to reach in two even for long hitters, but their strategy would be to get close to the bottom of the hill off the tee and then hit a semi-blind approach.

http://www.gozzerranchclub.com/golf/

[Andy Troeger]

A few more with smaller sample sizes--courses in () not necessarily in order:

Jim Engh
1. Black Rock
2. Tullymore
3. Lakota Canyon Ranch
(Sanctuary, Creek Club, Pradera, Redlands Mesa...10 total)

Coore & Crenshaw
1. Bandon Trails
2. Dormie Club
3. Cuscowilla
(Colorado GC, We-Ko-Pa Saguaro, Warren, TS North...7 total)

Tom Doak
1. Rock Creek
2. Pacific Dunes
3. Lost Dunes
(Old Mac, Ballyneal, Apache Stronghold, Charlotte Links...7 total)

Donald Ross
1. Pinehurst #2
2. Ross Cse at French Lick
3. Inverness
(Scioto, Broadmoor East, Holston Hills, Pine Needles)

[Chris Johnston]

Of the courses I remember playing or visiting:

Ross - Scioto, Oakland Hills, Inverness, Seminole, Columbus, Allegheny, Aronimink, Pinehurst 2, French Lick, Augusta CC, Wianno, Salem
Crump - Pine Valley
MacKenzie - Cypress, Pasatiempo, Augusta National, Scarlet
CBMac - National, Yale
Behr - Rancho Santa Fe,
Tillinghast  - San Francisco, Winged Foot
Raynor - Camargo, Fishers Island, Fox Chapel, Greenwich
Park - Maidstone, Olympia Fields
Thomas - LA North, Riviera
Flynn - Cherry Hills
Wilson - Laurel Valley, NCR, Moriane
Maxwell - Southern Hills, Prairie Dunes
Palmer - Tradition, Bay Hill, Teton Pines
Nicklaus - Dismal River, Muirfield Village, Mayacama, Shoal Creek, Castle Pines, Valhalla, PGA West, Sherwood.
Fazio - Wade Hampton, Whisper Rock, Estancia
Weiskopf - Loch Lomond, Snake River, Double Eagle
Dye - The Golf Club, , Honors, PDGC, Crooked Stick
Hills - Shaker Run, Longabarger, Hills (Sweden)
C&C - Sand Hills, Kapalua
Doak - Pacific Dunes, Old Macdonald, Common Ground

I think its right.

[Kalen Braley]

1) Gozzer.  I've heard the same thing, many people I talk to say that Gozzer is exceptional - certainly top 100 world and on par with anything else Fazio has done.  I'll accept that -- I didn't see it -- but there are times when I accept that I am likely wrong and the majority are right.  Gozzer would make my Fazio top 10 for sure, and maybe top 5, but I just didn't see it as being phenomenal.  Too many holes where blah and not enough holes were great.  On top of that the routing was awkward and unwalkable and the greens were a bit bland.  The par 5s as a group are very forgettable.  The par 3s are very strong, but the 14th(?), a short par-3, felt like filler.  The route to the tee is difficult and across a road and I think the hole would have worked better if Fazio was willing to make it a very short par-3 (sub-130 yards).  The routing would have been more comfortable and I think he could have been bolder with that green.  The views are great, though.

Mark,

So the 8th and 16th were forgettable?  Man you sure have some high standards my man....I thought those holes were fantastic.  Even #10 was a pretty darn interesting hole.

I would agree that a few holes like #2, 5, and 13 didn't have much going on...but all the rest were at the very least interesting holes...certainly not in the blah category.

I do agree its a housing course of sorts....but just like any other project, there are always constraints where the holes can be built.

[Mark Saltzman]

Kalen and Andy,

I was wrong about 8 -- even though I forgot about it, it's not forgettable.  It's a very good hole and I'm not sure why it escaped my mind.

Forgettable is not the right word for 16, though I don't think it's a particularly good hole.  I think it works better as a long par-4 if they'd move the tees up a bit.

2, 5 and 13 are dull, I agree.  But I would also add: 4, 6, 10 and 14.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen and Andy,

I was wrong about 8 -- even though I forgot about it, it's not forgettable.  It's a very good hole and I'm not sure why it escaped my mind.

Forgettable is not the right word for 16, though I don't think it's a particularly good hole.  I think it works better as a long par-4 if they'd move the tees up a bit.

2, 5 and 13 are dull, I agree.  But I would also add: 4, 6, 10 and 14.

I can see 6 going in that group, but #4 was terrific in my mind.  Great views from the tees, a very short driveable par 4 where the green is incorporated in some cool rock outcroppings.  Fantastic hole in my mind.

I would agree that 14 was a bit odd, even if I didn't mind it.  I really liked how the front bunkering ran straight into the water...like something you would see at Doral...hence being a bit out of place I suppose!

[Michael George]

.

[Andy Troeger]

Mark,
I'm with Kalen, I definitely wouldn't include #4 as dull. I drove that green and still made four. Its a great risk/reward opportunity as a driveable hole. You can lay-up and play safe too. I also still think #10 is the best par five on the course with a great green with some intimidating hazards to the left. I would tend to agree regarding some of those other holes.

In addition, the best holes out there are really good.

[Tom_Doak]

Pacific Dunes not in my top three?  That's an outlier of a viewpoint, especially from someone who hasn't played Barnbougle, either.

Then again, I wouldn't agree with your top choices for Nicklaus or Fazio or Dye, either, Mark.

does that mean you agree with all my other picks?  Ross, S. Thompson, McBroom, RTJ?

Mark:

No, I just quit reading after seeing your top picks for those three architects, because we obviously have different tastes.  Looking further down your list, the only ones I agree with for sure are Sand Hills for Bill Coore, St. George's for Stanley Thompson [though it's a close call], and Sunningdale (Old) for Willie Park, Jr.  But, you have picked several courses which I've never seen as favorites for some of the other architects listed.

[Mark Saltzman]

Mark:

If you can make it down, here is how I would rank the top 5 in northeast Ohio:  (1) Brookside (best greens), (2) Kirtland (most scenic and best bunkers), (3) Country Club (best routing), (4) Canterbury (best test), and (5) Sharon (best club atmosphere). 

What are your top 5-10 Toronto courses?

Maybe we should just re-title this thread getting to know Mark Saltzman.

Haha, my very own GTK!

That list of Ohio courses sounds very interesting.  There was a photo thread of Brookside earlier and I thought it looked phenomenal and everything I've heard about TCCPP is very positive.  I don't know that I've heard of Sharon, though.

Toronto has really good golf.  I always say that outside of the Greater NYC area and Greater Philly area, Toronto can compete with any other city golf-wise in the world.  It doesn't have anything better than a Doak 8, but it has many, many Doak 5-6s.

Being a bit liberal with the Greater Toronto area, here would be my top ten:

1. St. George's - S. Thompson
2. Devil's Paintbrush - Hurdzan
3. Hamilton (could be really special if restored) - Colt
4. Toronto - Colt
5. Rocky Crest - McBroom
6. Lookout Point - Travis
7. Westmount - S. Thompson
8. Coppinwood - T. Fazio
9. Kawartha - S. Thompson
10. The National - T. Fazio

And there are still lots of very good courses left off the list.  Others that could easily make a Toronto area top ten (all at least Doak 5s):

Summit (I haven't played it), Beacon Hall, Muskoka Bay, Scarboro, Oviinbyrd, Bigwin Island, Devil's Pulpit, Eagle's Nest, Osprey Valley, Rosedale, Thornhill, Mississaugua, Weston, Brantford, St. Thomas (Union).

[Mark Saltzman]

Mark,
I'm with Kalen, I definitely wouldn't include #4 as dull. I drove that green and still made four. Its a great risk/reward opportunity as a driveable hole. You can lay-up and play safe too. I also still think #10 is the best par five on the course with a great green with some intimidating hazards to the left. I would tend to agree regarding some of those other holes.

In addition, the best holes out there are really good.

Andy,

I agree there are some great holes.  Remember, in no way am I saying the course is bad -- in fact, I said it may be in my top-5 Fazio courses played.  I am just saying why I don't see it as his very best work.

Maybe 4 and 10 are better than I remember.  For whatever reason so many holes on that course are just not sticking out to me - I wish I had a better explanation.

[Michael George]

Mark:

Sharon is an all male stag club that has no tee times and no events (Spring day, Club Championship and Fall Day).  Was designed to be a course that you can show up, play golf and have a drink afterwards - that's it.  No breakfast.  Lunch is a buffet with basics.  Dinner only on Wednesdays and it is a buffet with a cook your own filet, ny strip or salmon.  The course is good (par 3's on the back nine are my personal favorite).   Property is gorgeous.   Best part of the club is the atmosphere.  I regularly play 18 on Friday or Saturday afternoons when the course is empty in 2 hours.

 

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