OK, let's cut the bullshit . . . .

[Tom_Doak]

I wonder - even given that as a group they are not great wedge players - how would the LPGA players fare on #10? Most of them cannot pump one far enough to reach the pad, so therefore would be forced to choose a different strategy. My bet is that their stroke average would equal or better the PGA Tour boys taking a rip from the tee.      

Gib:

I think you are dead right about that.  That's what I saw on the 6th at Pacific Dunes in the Curtis Cup Matches.  The hole was absolutely no problem for the girls, because they didn't have to think about taking a rip at the green.  Driver or 3-wood, wedge, someone made birdie in nearly every match!

P.S.  Thanks for your support.  I hope they never get the 14th at Trails right, because if they do, they'll want to "fix" 16 at Pacific next.

[Garland Bayley]

I have never played Riveria, so I can't say for sure, but I watched the tournament and wondered why every pro just did not lay up on the left and trust their wedge and putter. As a rule, pros are so amazingly accurate with their wedges. I don't see why they would invite bogey or worse on such a hole, but maybe that is my conservative bias.

BD 14, and PD 16, are two of my least favorite holes on the property. I've struggled with myself as to why I feel this way. Am I just a whiney single-digit player who hates the idea of making a bogey on such a short hole?

Yes, Signed
High Handicpper.


 Or is it a logical reaction to the THIRD shot that is required when you miss the green. I know when I played "safe" off the tee at PD 16 and hit a wedge (from rock hard fairway) that failed to hold I ended up DEAD in the back left bunker, I whined like a baby...

See, there you said it, you are a whiney single-digit player.

My best result on the hole was when I bombed and gouged it from the right rough below the hole.  I just think the hole demands too much from average golfers.

Or, maybe average golfers know their limitations, play to them, or simply accept their inadequacies.

Same thing at BD 14. I played safe 5-woods three times, hit the green once. On one of my misses left I made a ridiculous up and down par by hitting the precise spot I needed to on the upslope and the ball rolled near the pin.

Why weren't you hitting putter? I made an easy par by just putting it up the slope.

But I remember thinking that is too much for recreational players, especially higher handicaps who play ping pong over the green until they finally give up.

Not being a high handicapper, I suggest you not speak for them.

I think there is a fine line between maddenly hard short holes, and ones that lead to frequent X's on the card.

Let's see. As a single digit, anything over bogey becomes an X. As an over 20 handicapper, anything over 8 becomes an X on my card. Sorry to break it to you, but 8 has never been in any danger on these relatively easy holes for me.

[Dave McCollum]

I like Garland’s edgy attitude.  When I got screwed at 14 BT, I didn’t hit the shots.  When I played it again, after the softening, I think, I did hit the shots and made a par.  I don’t consider myself a low or high handicap golfer.  Average hack seems about right.  I’ve shot par; I’ve failed to break 100.  I think Garland nailed it in that average golfers don’t tend to blame the design of a hole as much as their own limitations as golfers.  We suck, OK, let’s play the next one. 

The last time I played 14 BT, I played with the guy who shaped the green complex.  I wish I could remember what he said about the thinking that went into the design.  I do remember him being keenly aware of the criticism of the hole.  And that they were very aware of how controversial the design might be when they were building it.  They knew they were pushing the envelope for a public golf course.  Isn’t that what a great risk/reward, short par-4 is all about?

For me, it just looked like such an utterly cool hole that I couldn’t wait to play it.  I hit the tee shot I intended and got a good result.  Had I screwed up, it wouldn’t have mitigated the excitement and anticipation I felt on the tee.  It demanded great execution from my mediocre game.  I got the rare pleasure pulling it off.  I get to play mediocre holes with my mediocre game all the time.  Don’t deprive me, the average hack, vivid moments from my highlight reel.   Great hole, leave it alone.

Oh, Hi Bill, you are not wrong.  I had the pleasure of playing with you at Bandon on that trip you describe in 2010.  We just get and take different things from golf.  You can play, so you expect to play well.  I can’t, so, WTF, have some fun.  We didn’t play Trails together, but that was my first go at BT.  It was so much more than I expected, such a beautiful course, it will always be one of my favorites.  I love them all.  It’s only gotten better since.  Last time, The Preserve was all sand and dozer-tread marks.  Still, it shrieked fun golf.

[Bill Brightly]

Garland and Dave,

Like a recovering alcoholic, I fight the temptation to whine every day. I know it is a terrible habit. At my home course I have a running battle with my single-digit friends/whiners about what they perceive to be "inconsistent sand." As a former greens chair, they come to me hoping that I'll ask the superintendent to monitor every bunker on a daily basis to achieve 100% uniformity... I respond with things like: "you hit the ball in a hazard, what do you think you deserve?" or "you really should try to avoid those in the future..." or "would you be happier if the hazard was filled with water?" They grumble and find someone else to whine to.

Gib is right, these holes all FIRST test the golfers ability to control their testosterone and think sensibly off the tee. Once a lay up shot has been played, I think the holes then test the better golfer's ability to hit it STRAIGHT and also be able to control spin. And that is a perfectly sensible combination of tests for the architect to create. I just happen to have really good distance control coupled with a very common pull, except when I play for it, then it goes straight, so these holes make my sphincter tighten.

Yes, a double is an X for us single digit golfers. We don't like them, and SOMEONE is to blame...

Bill

[Peter Pallotta]

Bill - thanks, a good and clear post.  In reading about the hole over the years, it had struck me before that the issue was all about this one very hard (and unexpectedly hard) golf hole on a C&C course. It almost makes me believe the snipe that the reason so many of us love "strategic" golf holes is because we're lousy golfers! But it is a bit sad that even the kind of architectural-loving folks who get out to Bandon feel the need to have a golf hole -- every golf hole, apparently -- confirm to their notions of quality/interest/challenge instead of the architect's.

Peter

[Jim Nugent]

Never having played the hole, two things especially interest me. 

One, I remember Bob Huntley, an excellent player and former member at Riviera, saying the only way to play the hole was to lay up.  I'm pretty sure this was before the new drivers and balls added 30 yards or more to good players' drives. 

And two, a quote from another thread this past week, where touring pro's said there again was only one real way to play the hole, and that was to drive for the green. 

Either one makes me wonder how great the hole is, if it dictates play so much.   

[Dave McCollum]

Very amusing post, Bill.  We get those same complaints all the time, usually from better players, but also from high cappers who complain about things good golfers like—tight fairways, closely mown chipping areas, too little sand in the bunkers, fast fairways that aren’t lush green, etc.   Scoopers want to scoop.  Good players want to score.  Listen to them, sympathize, and then restate our mission:  it’s all about giving the maximum amount of pleasure to the greatest number of golfers.  Honestly, I don’t know how our pros can listen to golfers as they must.  The complaints, the war stories, the equipment trivia, the latest instructional tip they just read, and on and on.   Some golfers drift down here in the middle of the winter, snow covering the course, just to gab and have a beer.  Way it is, and that’s OK.  Part of the job. 

[Bill Brightly]

Dave,

This is a true story. I guess the "sticks" are our club felt that the greens chairman who followed me was not listening to their concerns, and as a 17 handicap, they figured he probably couldn't tell the difference between a "good" bunker and a bad one...

So they got together and nominated a spokesman, one guy who served with me on the committee, a really nice guy and fine player who has won our club championship several times...  He called me at work and told me how unhappy everyone is... I listened for a while, then went into my rap: "Let's not call them bunkers. Let's call them hazards to be avoided, not just another condition for you guys to make an up and down par save, etc." He responded by listing all of the problem bunkers, this one has too much sand, this one has too little, etc. and I politely said I don't find any problems. Finally he said, "Bill, some of them are so bad that I find myself consciously trying to avoid them before I swing..." Then he caught himself and said "I guess that's the point, right?" I said "any other problems out there you want me to fix?

[Garland Bayley]

Bill,

Now that's funny!

[Dave McCollum]

Bill,

Good story.  I know it’s true.  I’ve posted a number of similar tales on this site over the years and that is just the tip of the iceberg.  Some of the most astoundingly stupid ideas involve golfer’s views about how a hole could be designed or improved.  I won’t list them here now.  Instead, two points need to be made.  Ten years or less ago, I might have said the same stupid things.  I’ve done some things to my course that make me cringe today.  Second, when we do make changes, it’s generally well received by golfers who seem to appreciate improvements once they are in the dirt.

Golfers don’t like change.  A perfectly useless tree blows down, they want to replace it.  Any change will piss off certain personalities.  My m.o. has evolved to this:

1.   Discuss/brainstorm any improvements thoroughly with staff.
2.   If no solid consensus is reached, do nothing, and think about it some more.
3.   Get as much informed, expert information as possible to make a decision.
4.   Always think about all golfers of all abilities, especially women and children.
5.   When sure about a decision and your staff agrees, just do it.  Explain it later.

I’m not saying that golfers don’t have good ideas or that we don’t discuss ideas with them and listen to what they have to say.  We do that about many things.  It’s just that local politics and committees don’t usually produce great results. 

One of the best things we’ve ever done are annual or bi-annual clean up days.  Members volunteer their labor for a Saturday morning.  Staff assists and directs.  We get about a hundred people clearing brush, filling divots, cutting down and pruning trees, planting flowers, and all kinds of jobs the grounds crew has trouble keeping up with when the grass is growing.  It’s amazing what gets accomplished by such a large work force.  We feed them lunch, give them a few beers, and we all go play golf.  It’s also pretty amazing what pride these folks take in their club. 

It’s also interesting to see who doesn’t volunteer.  That’s right, as you’ve probably guessed, some of the biggest, most frequent complainers.  It’s all about them.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dave and Bill,

Old photos can eliminate a lot of complaints.

Golfers, as a whole, rarely complain about something that affects someone else.

And those who find things in good order are rarely vocal with their approval

[Patrick_Mucci]

I wonder - even given that as a group they are not great wedge players - how would the LPGA players fare on #10? Most of them cannot pump one far enough to reach the pad, so therefore would be forced to choose a different strategy. My bet is that their stroke average would equal or better the PGA Tour boys taking a rip from the tee.      

Gib:

I think you are dead right about that.  That's what I saw on the 6th at Pacific Dunes in the Curtis Cup Matches.  The hole was absolutely no problem for the girls, because they didn't have to think about taking a rip at the green.  Driver or 3-wood, wedge, someone made birdie in nearly every match!

Tom,

I'm anxious to see how they play # 5 at Sebonack this year, along with other holes like # 1, 10 and 14.

I'm sure that tee location might have something to do with their decisions, but, it will be interesting.

[Ted Sturges]

Why is #10 at Riviera considered a "great hole" -  and yet my beloved #14 at Bandon Trails has been earmarked for yet another rebuild?

If Ben and Bill were on the south side of the divot like The Captain, would Mike Keiser pause for a moment before rethinking one of the world's most beguiling holes?


 

This was Gib's original question.  I think the answer to this question resides in the difference between a private club course vs. a resort course.  I love both holes.  The 10th at Riviera, being a member's course, is a hole that is "mostly" played by people who have played the hole many, many times.  They know (through trial and error) where to go, and where NOT to go.  The 14th at Bandon Trails is a "resort" course, and a large majority of the folks who are playing the hole are playing it for the first time (and for some, it will be the only time).  I think that makes a difference.  I think most architects would even design a little differently for a hole that will be played by club members versus resort "guests".  I'd be interested to hear what architects would have to say about that.

TS

[Tim Pitner]

Why is #10 at Riviera considered a "great hole" -  and yet my beloved #14 at Bandon Trails has been earmarked for yet another rebuild?

If Ben and Bill were on the south side of the divot like The Captain, would Mike Keiser pause for a moment before rethinking one of the world's most beguiling holes?


 

This was Gib's original question.  I think the answer to this question resides in the difference between a private club course vs. a resort course.  I love both holes.  The 10th at Riviera, being a member's course, is a hole that is "mostly" played by people who have played the hole many, many times.  They know (through trial and error) where to go, and where NOT to go.  The 14th at Bandon Trails is a "resort" course, and a large majority of the folks who are playing the hole are playing it for the first time (and for some, it will be the only time).  I think that makes a difference.  I think most architects would even design a little differently for a hole that will be played by club members versus resort "guests".  I'd be interested to hear what architects would have to say about that.

TS

Ted, in lawyerspeak, your argument proves too much.  Bandon Dunes is not supposed to be your average resort.  We have plenty of those kinds of courses. 

[Gib_Papazian]

Wait a minute, the vast majority of players I see at Bandon Trails are led around by their proboscis with experienced caddies, who have already had 13 holes to evaluate their player's abilities. If #14 were the first hole - like the equally difficult #1 at NGLA - maybe you'd have a point.

Frankly, the other end of the argument is that #14 has an enormous amount of bail-out to the left of the putting surface. If a player whiffs one far to the right off the tee, the smart play is an approach on or over the green to the front left. That is the penalty for hitting a balloon ball off the tee to the death-spot.

By contrast, I don't care where you hit the tee shot on #1 at NGLA, the next shot is no bargain and the putt is electroshock therapy, right off the bat. A five-putt sets an ominous tone for the rest of C.B.'s gauntlet.

The same goes for #4 at Spyglass. Again, the average resort player there has been fully tenderized being horsewhipped on #1, playing ping pong in the dunes on #2 and losing one in the wind on #3. Now, we ask this traumatized 14 handicapper (who actually plays to an 18) - already bleeding triple-bogies out of his rectum - to try and find a safe spot between the dunes and ice plant, which only exists in mythology.

The difference is that 90% of the players at Spyglass cart-ball their way off the 1st tee armed with nothing more than a yardage book and horrible slice.