[Bill Wright]

Let me start by saying this:

I'm not the biggest fan of Tom Fazio-designed golf courses, but many of them are pretty damned good.  Consider:

1.  Shadow Creek
2.  World Woods - Pine Barrens
3.  Forest Creek
4.  Spring Hill
5.  John's Island West
6.  Wade Hampton
7.  Galloway National
8.  Lake Nona
9.  Wild Dunes Links
10.  Black Diamond Ranch Quarry

Objectively, think about this list.

Granted, each and every one of us could offer some excellent suggestions to improve each of these courses, but individually and collectively, wouldn't any architect alive, including this site's favorites, Tom Doak, Coore and Crenshaw, Gil Hanse, Jeff Brauer, Mike DeVries, be proud to claim these ten courses (and other Fazio courses) as their lifetime achievements.  

Sure I get bored by the repetitiveness of some of Fazio's courses, the few squandered opportunities (e.g., The Preserve, Pelican Hill), and the big budgets, but let's be honest...if my favorite architect, dead or alive - Alister MacKenzie - were alive and building courses today, with today's opportunities, money, and heavy earthmoving equipment, he, like Fazio, would have some hits and misses, too (and I'm not claiming Fazio has built anything as good as Royal Melbourne, Cypress Point, or Crystal Downs).

So, instead of the cute threads and comments, the "where's the Faz going to waste $38 million next, and...he only showed up 5 times, WINK, WINK, WINK... he's hiding in Rae's Creek or the Quarry at Merion or the artificial rocks at Pelican Hill to wreak havoc on all that is good and pure"...

let's finally admit it - in the context of the present and when he's discussed in historical terms 50 years from now...he's one of the best.

 

[Nick_Ficorelli]

Fazio, one of the best. Discussion tabled for 50 years.

[John_Conley]

I love Pine Barrens and John's Island.  Black Diamond is a tricky one because only one hole (#9) stood out of the non-quarry holes.  If you haven't played there, there are 5 in the pit.  

I'm not a big fan of Lake Nona.  Pretty plain in my eyes.

Spring Hill's site is too severe, in my opinion, to yield a great golf course.  I only walked it, but I can't imagine I'd find enough room for my tastes.

Haven't seen the others, but I do agree with your point.  It isn't his fault that people love playing his courses.

I'll add Camp Creek as one where he did a pretty good job designing, as well as Cypress and Sabal at Bonita Bay.  All three would have been pretty bland sites before the course was there.

[John_McMillan]

I think that more than the list of courses, Doak, Coore and Crenshaw, Hanse, Brauer or Devries would love to have a crack at the $150 million or so represented in the collective construction budgets of the listed courses.  

You claim that Fazio doesn't have the "big hit" of a Royal Melbourne, Cypress Point or Crystal Downs, but wouldn't an architect as good as your claim have come up with one given $150 million in construction budgets?  

[ed_getka]

Bill,
 I disagree with your statement that in 50 years Fazio will be seen as one of the best. He is one of the most in demand architects of this era, but when you look at your list of courses I can't think of one that will be in the daydreams of future golfers. Granted I have not played any of them, but I have heard and read things about all of them and none of them is in the top 100 of courses I would love to play. I don't mean for this to seem like Fazio bashing, just my personal opinion. I could play some of the listed courses and undoubtedly enjoy them, but they don't stir my soul, like a chance to play Cypress, Crystal Downs, NGLA, etc..

[Tim_Weiman]

John McMillan:

You are probably right that the architects you mention would love to have a crack at $150 million in construction budgets.

But, so far it does not appear that throwing money around is the most likely road to creating another classic such as the three Mackenzie courses you cite.  As Bill Wright points out, with all that money Tom Fazio has built a number of very good courses, but thus far, nothing in the league that C&C and TD have done (at Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes) with small construction budgets.

I remain skeptical that money is really the secret to building classics.  Put another way, I know TD is highly motivated on the Red Raider project, but still have to believe - from the little information I have - that Barnbougle is more likely to turn out a classic, despite the likelyhood of spending far less money in construction.

Any thoughts on that?

Bill Wright:

I'm guessing that neither Bill Coore or Tom Doak would be satisfied with the courses you cite as their lifetime achievements.  It's not for me to say, but that is my hunch.  Frankly, I think both are shooting higher.......quietly, privately in their own way.

As for Gil Hanse, Jeff Brauer and Mike DeVries what you say might possibly be true.  I say that not to denigrate any of these individuals, but just based on the assumption that they may not be given near as many opportunities as Fazio has had.

[A_Clay_Man]

I'm just alittle curious: Does anyone know how many total courses does the famous Mr. F have under his belt?
I too question the placement of Black Diamond, it must've been a tough tenth choice. While not even having seen it, the whisper is what John Conley suggests, 6 good holes, the rest no biggie.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

I agree you have to give TF credit in certainly having the opportunity to work on so many interesting sites. The listing you gave for TF did not include Victoria National, The Quarry at LaQuinta and Estancia -- I'm assuming you have not played those courses.

The key will be how a number of these courses are looked upon in a number of years. Your choices at 8-10 quickly came upon the golfing scene quickly and fell just as fast.

Too often the word "great" is thrown around to such a large degree that it has little meaning. I enjoy playing many TF courses but I often believe I am playing a packaged version in many cases -- on a personal note I really like VN and think it is the best TF course I've played.

Bill, TF has built a big time reputation among the money people and he's been able to generate the kind of results that have given him more opportunities than just about anyone in the design business. I've played a good range of courses over the years and would be hard pressed to have more than 3-4 TF courses in my personal top 100 and I do not consider myself one of the GCA crowd who detests nearly everything that is modern.

TF has had more than his share of great sites -- how many of them will really be standing in the next 20-25 years as real gems. That question will not be answered now but later as the century unfolds.

Just an opinion ...

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Bill,
I'm more then likely the biggest dissenting voice against the Faz, so I'll go ahead and put myself on the line herre to say the following........

Yes, we are extra hard, especially when considering when Fazio's plans are followed to a tee, they are usually the most soundly built in the business. However, when it comes to style of design, he has as SDPB has mentioned had a horrible record west of the Mississippi.

He seems to be an excellent businessman, an excellent family man, which certainly is an admirable quality that warrants an extrordinary amount of praise.

However, I have yet to see a golf course of his that warrants a greatness which he so deeply strives.

He has displayed an arrogance against the classic courses he so very much wants to alter or work on, and I really don't think he has a clue to what the word RESTORATION means. a person of his supposed caliber of greatness should understand that term, and if he doesn't, politely decline any idea or notion of working on them.

-He greatly erred by having underlings over see the restoration of The Great White Faces.
-He further erred by excepting any work at Riviera.
-Next stop is Oakmont, which will be hard to screw-up, but given the chance.....

I feel if he were to tone down the costs to build his style of golf courses, he would meet a much more favorable result with his original designs. the first thing that comes up with the masses in a Fazio design is cost, as if it is a good thing to spend 38 million on a golf course. However, he must be a hell of a slaesman to get clients to buy into all of it, because the prices of his courses seem to sure be getting more and more costlier all of the time.

Yes, his design style is not my preference, but it seems to be that of many others, and while I could show all the proof in the world, one is just not going to see it if they don't want to.

I hope in all earnest that Mr. Fazio can make his bones with me. It would be a sheer joy to play one of his courses that could offer all the elements of which I feel constitute as Great.

50 years form now, I see his works to be similar to that of RTJ's from 50 years ago today. (Circa 1952) There are very few to mention because they just seem to fall off the radar screen.

Until then, I'm the Energizer Bunny.

[Bill Wright]

Matt Ward:

I've played Estancia and The Quarry, not Victoria National.  Based on the photos I've seen, Ran's detailed analysis on this site, I think it goes it makes the list, for discussion's sake.  Though I like both Estancia and The Quarry, I felt both lacked strong shot values - the wide fairways, turfed over ravines, took something away from very dramatic settings (the houses at Estancia also ultimately hurt it), though you can fairly put either of them in the list.  

Black Diamond clearly belongs (Doak gives it a "7").  The quarry holes are a memorable stretch, and the topography fo the site and some interesting greens make the other 13 holes work.  The last course of the ten I came up was Lake Nona.  I haven't seen it in 8 years, but I remember some very good holes, with character to the green complexes, and an interesting "waste bunker" concept that bled into the natural surrounds.  By substituting Victoria National for it, and perhaps Sand Ridge (or The Quarry and/or Estancia) for Wild Dunes, I stand by the proposition of this thread.

I agree that the word "great" is thrown around way too much, not only in golf architecture, but in virtually every human endeavor.

How many "great" courses are there, really?  Of the ones I've played, I'll limit it to TOC, Dornoch, National, Shinnecock, Winged Foot West, Pinehurst 2, Seminole, Merion, Pine Valley, Sand Hills, Cypress, Pebble, Pacific Dunes, the original Harbor Town, Casa de Campo, Royal Melbourne, and I'll say it...Shadow Creek.

Excepting the amateur architects, let's look at these courses and their architects: Old Tom Morris, Ross, Macdonald and Raynor, Flynn, Coore and Crenshaw, Doak, Dye, Mackenzie...and Fazio.

Believe me, there are some Fazio dogs.  But every guy mentioned on this list had some, has some, or will have some.  

All I'm saying, is look at the whole Fazio picture, and like it or not, it's stronger than what I would have thought before starting this topic.

And, you've got to look at the whole picture.  If the only Dye course you ever saw was Carmel Valley Ranch, the only Mackenzie course you ever saw was Green Hills, the only Doak course Charlotte Links, the only Coore and Crenshaw course the additional 9 at Onion Creek, etc., one might claim each were overrated.

The bottom line is that when you strip away the wild analysis, attempts at humor, and egging on which we all like to indulge in occasionally, Fazio deserves respect.

[Jeff_Stettner]

As Tommy mentioned, Fazio's courses on the left coast have been generally disappointing. I would wonder if this has to do with the decision to broaden his firm and take on many more projects. Fazio spent many years working on few courses near his east coast home, and I think the quality of his earlier work reflects the attention he was able to place on each course. The Farm, in northern Georgia, is a fine example of Fazio's better work. It's hardly the "playable" tracks that are pretty that seem to open every month these days. When Fazio started working out west, he also took on many more projects. I think there's a correlation.

I do think it's silly to discount what Fazio means to most golfers, however. I once spent a week living on Cuscowilla, studying every inch of the layout. I must have shot ten rolls of film. I spent two hours zipping around Reynolds Plantation and took maybe a roll. I show golfers bunkers and greens from both courses all the time. Most golfers love the look Fazio delivers. He paints darn pretty pictures.    

[BillV]

Bill Wright

Depends on your definition of good.  By Tom Fazio's definition he builds, to paraphrase, perfect courses, the best with no bad holes.  And in the light of many he does just that.  This is all about target groups.

To  many on this site he is close to the Anti-Christ because of what he does and how he does it.

The reality is somewhere in between.  

Galloway should jump to #3 on your own list, there are serious routing problems and a couple of holes that probably got mixed up and added to the wrong course, but all in all, it beats Forest Creek by a lot.  Add Victoria National to the top 5 and beyond that, it's all formulaic.  I'll give Shadow Creek a free pass based upon several people I really trust's opinions.  Estancia was a great big whiff in my opinion.

Black Diamond Quarry is a freakin'joke and I'll argue all my days against it being considered a great course, so that's all I'll say.

Don't diminish and disparage those six fine gentlemen you listed as wishing to have this list as their crowning achievemnet.


To All:

Visually attractive
Playable
Fair to stroke play
Well-Conditioned
Well-Framed
Well-Drained
Well-Constructed
Well-Photographed

What do you or anyone want in a golf course?

Do 90%+ of the people who play Fazio's courses have a great experience and enjoy themselves?  98%?  Maybe, but that's not enough.

Fazio is an easy target for this group and he deserves all he gets. His greatest success is in real estate sales, but even he couldn't guarantee success at the Preserve. I for one must be a Fazio basher.  I see mostly commercial success.

And he has absolutely no business whatsoever removing the quirk, character and occasional unfairness from the wonderful old treasures this country has.  His hold on the Philadelphia crowd at this point really scares me. (Gotta watch what I say) TOM FAZIO IS THE GREATEST ARCHITECT OF HIS KIND IN HISTORY!!!

No question, he is the darling of the nouveau riche.
Is that the legacy of golf course architecture for the last 10 years of the 20th and the first 10 years of the 21st centuries?   I can see his "tag" in 10 years

The Greatest Architect of the 20th AND 21st Centuries---MR. Tom Fazio

It all comes down to "Is commercially successful great because it is comercially successful?   Does success breed its own standard? "  

God help us if that's all there is.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Bill
I think you have missed the mark on the title of this thread: Golf clubs by Tom Fazio get ripped in this Atlas. This thread is a perfect illustration of why that statement is inaccurate, his course are regualrly praised and criticized, many times by the same people. I thought VN was very good and was less than thrilled with Sand Ridge. Tom Fazio is a very talented golf architect and his work will be studied years from now - as modern day AW Tillinghast or modern day Dick Wilson, who knows? Time will tell how history ultimately paints his work, but one disturbing trend is the early elevation of his work in the rankings followed normally by drastic fall after a only a few years. I think the most consistant criticism of TF is centered around his book/written philosophies and restoration/remodeling work.

[BillV]

Tom

And you missed the point of mine, I suppose.  He deserves to get ripped.

Once you get past the first few of his 150 or so courses, there is a lot of pablum.  Real estate courses. There is a lot of work by "no-name" or not commercially recognizable architects that are of more merit, sorry.

Also, his work on modernization, renovation and restoration proves what he doesn't know more than what he does know.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

BillV
My comments were not directed at you.

[David Wigler]

As one of the biggest Tom Fazio defenders on this site, I'll throw in my two cents on several points.  First - Bill, never apologize for calling Shadow Creek great.  Shadow Creek is GREAT!  On an earlier thread, we debated this.  No one WHO ACUALLY PLAYED THE COURSE disagreed with its assessment of greatness.  That written, Black Diamond is several good holes surrounded by many mediocre ones.  Wild Dunes is 16 bad holes finished by two holes made good by land and yet repetitive to earlier work on the course.  In addition, I must agree with John that Lake Nona is OK.  Lake Nona might sneak into the very bottom of a top 100 list but is not a course Fazio would want as a signature.  Have you played those three courses?  If yes, what made you think that they should be part of Fazio's legacy?  For example, Pelican Hill for all it could have been is still a vastly superior course to Wild Dunes.  I agree with many others that Victoria National might be Fazio's second best work and has a chance to mature into greatness.

Ed - Is Shadow Creek really not in the top 100 courses you would like to get a chance to play?  If so, that is a shame.  Any student of architecture needs to see it.  It is that good!

Tommy - Have you played Shadow Creek?  If yes, then the next time I get to the west coast, we need to have a few beers and debate it.  The statements "horrible record west of the Mississippi" and "However, I have yet to see a golf course of his that warrants a greatness which he so deeply strives" are incongruous with his work on that course.

One last point.  Tommy and the others are correct, his restoration work is awful.  Tom Fazio truly believes that he is the greatest ever at his profession and that the classics would be thrilled to see their work improved by someone better.  I will praise Fazio's modern work against all odds but I wish he would remove himself from the restoration field because he is a hack at it.

[Ran Morrissett]

Bill Wright,

My frustration with Fazio stems from the fact that the  majority of the courses that you listed were done five plus years ago. Thus, it almost seems that he has done his best work and is now mailing it in with an occasional exception like Victoria National where the unique property helped insure that a unique course was created.

Cheers

[Tommy_Naccarato]

David,
I have never played Shadow Creek, but still would enjoy having a beer or two.

We'll let the debate happen on QofLQ which I have some pretty strong opinions about. After all, it is supposed to be one of these great Fazio courses correct? Wait a second! It fell off the Golfweek list like many of the other Great Fazio courses before it!:)

[Tim_Weiman]

Tommy:

Out of curiousity, how many of the ten courses Bill Wright cites have you seen or played?

[APBernstein]

I haven't played the shear volume of Fazio courses that some on this site.  I've seen some of his good work (Forest Creek), his average work (Pinehurst #4), his not so average work (Pinehurst #8), and his pretty forgettable work (Osprey Point @ Kiawah Island).

I do find it interesting, however, that we are supposed to drop our discussion for 50 years and just assume that the Fazio fans are correct.  Today, if I set out to play 5 Fazio courses in the new year, I could come away with two very different opinions, depending on the five that I pick.  If I went to Victoria National and World Woods, etc., his work would look pretty good.  However, if I played a lot of courses like Wild Dunes (Harbour), I might feel sick to my stomach.

I tend to agree with Ran in this case.  Fazio has become more than an architect.  The business that he runs is obviously built on money, just like any other business.  Whether he mails in the design or not, he still makes the same amount of money.  And with his name on it, people are bound to love it.

And by the way, Wild Dunes (Links) isn't too bad a course if you start at #16.  The first 15 are rather ordinary and not worthy of above a 7, in my opinion.

[Tim_Weiman]

APBernstein:

I first played Wild Dunes (Links) about twenty years ago, back when it first opened, when there was no real estate development, no clubhouse, etc.

That's when the course was at its peak.  It hardly seemed ordinary; instead the word "wild" semed like a better description.

So, to my mind the course stands out for how much real estate development can influence one's perceptions.  Today, I would basically agree with your assessment of holes 1-15, though #10 probably deserves higher, perhaps much higher, marks.  I also have always enjoyed the approach shot to #13.

In some ways the Harbor course is a more interesting story.  Today, it comes across as a total abortion.  I can't stand it.
But, again, when it first opened my perception was quite different.  Real estate development is only part of the story.  The layout itself was changed substantially from the original design and for the worse, in my opinion.  Indeed, the changes were so great, that the original Harbor course is a candidate for Daniel Wexler's "Missing Links".

[SPDB]

Tommy -
I did say his designs west of the Mississippi have come up short, but I think that is purely a function of most of the work being done by his Kansas City office, which lacks the number of good design associates in relation to Hendersonville. I guess that is a business decision made by Fazio, and probably a poor one at that, seeing as how it has affected the opinion of his designs overall. That being said, however, I do hear that Stock Farm in Montana is pretty impressive, and it may be that that result owes substantially to Charles Schwab being behind the project.

Fazio does get ripped on this site, and I don't agree with BillV that he deserves it. That he has produced some really good designs, i think, is unrebuttable. That he has produced some regrettable designs is unfortunate, but it certainly doesn't warrant the harsh words some of those who people this site have for him.

One of the main complaints is that Fazio, having made a name for himself, now just "mails it in." How come I never see this complaint lodged when speaking of Donald Ross? Now I know it seems sacrilege to try and offer any criticism of DR, but a LARGE number of his courses were mailed in, some of which is good (White Bear, Rhode Island CC), but a lot of which is not very good, if still existant.

[Bill Wright]

John Conley:

Try to play Spring Hill this spring.  Pure golf, great variety of holes, memorability, different green complexes that fit the shots, walkable, perfect small clubhouse with the driving range 2 steps from the pro shop, and a terrific stretch from 12 on in (#10 is the only hole I didn't really like out of 18).  I'd defy ANYONE on this site not to give it credit when credit's due.

SPDB:

Terrific post.
I have played Stock Farm, and I would include it in this list - it's excellent and has a great large scale to it -  but I figure nobody else has played it so it wouldn't help validate the point.

For all, I've amended my original Fazio Top 10 after some very good suggestions.  In chronological order of opening:

1.  Wade Hampton (1987)
2.  Black Diamond Ranch Quarry (1987)
3.  John's Island West (1988)
4.  Shadow Creek (1990)
5.  World Woods Pine Barrens (1993)
6.  Galloway National (1995)
7.  Forest Creek (1996)
8.  Victoria National (1998)
9.  Sand Ridge (1998)
10. Spring Hill (1999)

For all who have taken shots at Fazio, consider a certain baseball player.  You can say you don't like the earring, you can say he only plays for the money, doesn't run out grounders like the old-time players, isn't your style,

AND I'VE SAID ALL THESE THINGS,

but you're lying to yourself if Barry Bonds shouldn't be respected as one of the greats of the game.

Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio, Williams, Mantle, Mays, Bonds...
(and I hope Derek Jeter)

Macdonald and Raynor, Ross, Tillie, Mackenzie, Flynn, Trent Jones, Dye, Fazio...
(and I hope Bill and Ben, and Tom Doak).

[John_McMillan]

Tim -

You asked for my thoughts on the relationship between construction budgets and great courses.

Clearly, a lot of architects have spent much money without creating courses which justified their princely construction budgets - so in my terminology, it's hard to fit a regression line between quality of course and its cost.  

However, if you control for the architect, I think you do get some relationships.  In talking with Tom Doak, there are several holes where he explained that they wanted to do more, but were running against constraints which prevented additional work.  If you gave Doak, or another of the "minimalist" designers listed, an additional $2 or $3 million in construction budget, I think the courses would have an extra polish which would further distinguish them - which is why I think they would drool at the type of funding Fazio seems to be able to attract from his clients.

[Patrick_Mucci]

On what sites has this enormous funding been spent, and how much was for acquisition costs, and how much was for the design and construction of THE GOLF COURSE.  
And,  were these courses real estate projects, and was any of the money spent on site improvements for non golf items ?

I understand all of the costs associated with Shadow Creek, but would someone shed some light on these high budget allegations as they pertain STRICTLY TO THE GOLF COURSE,
on a specific course by course basis.

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