Budget for golf club in the UK

[Dan Byrnes]

With the fortunate issue of having a global group on his site some discussions become very much golf in the USA is different than UK.  I get that but what I am wondering is what is an operating budget for a nice club in the UK.  Not a top 100 but a club that when you visit you say to yourself if I lived here I would be a member.

I am just trying to educate myself not debate what is right or wrong.

I know my local club which isn't anything wow but a nice little place the operating costs are roughly

500k greens budget and greens employees
250k pro shop/ golf operations staff
80k pool and staff we don't have tennis
150k for insurance and local taxes
300k  operate the building and administrative staff building be higher than admin
Assume Resturant costs with no building costs (heat and electric) breaks even.

So while it could be done somewhat cheaper no pool, smaller club house etc it is hard to operate a club for less than a million a year in the US I am sure there are clubs that operate for less but most are higher. BTW my club is in the NorthEast we golf typically April-Nov.

So how does all of this compare in the UK?  I realize there are no pools so 80k right there.

Just trying to better understand the comparable economics, also what would be the membership numbers, mine was 200-300.

Thanks

Dan

[Adrian_Stiff]

Dan - Of course it can vary a lot, some clubs own their ground and some lease (rent) A golf course annual lease can run from pretty much zero up to £100,000.

Green staff say 5 £120,000 Secretary and Assistant £40,000  Pro £15,000 Cleaner £10,000 Bar and Catering £115,000
Fuel £20,000 Rates (local tax) £30,000 Machinery replacement £40,000 Insurance £8000 Legal and Accounts £9000 Provisions for depreciation £30,000 Heating Lighting Water £25,000 Red tapey compliance shite £25,000. Greenkeeping budget £80,000

Somewhere between that figure of just about £550,000 upwards, but you could double it as you get to some top 100 courses.
Some smaller clubs could chip a bit off that.

[Dan Byrnes]

Not hugely different from my club but cheaper.  How many members and what  dues?  Our dues are 400 a month roughly.  The point I am trying to understand why is the typical UK club cheaper than a typical US club, not a Merion or Winged foot.

Dan

[Sean_A]

Not hugely different from my club but cheaper.  How many members and what  dues?  Our dues are 400 a month roughly.  The point I am trying to understand why is the typical UK club cheaper than a typical US club, not a Merion or Winged foot.

Dan

$400 month would put your club in the top 5% (maybe top 1%!) most expensive in England.  The difference is likely number of members.  The average English club may have twice as many members as the average US club.  The usual mantra is there is no virtue in an empty course.

Ciao   

[Jon Earl]

Dan

I'm a member of what would probably be described as a middle-tier members course located in South London (or north Surrey depending on your point of view!). Subs are £1,400 per year for full 7 day membership.

This is breakdown for the 2010 financial year.

Course expenditure = £377,000. This includes:
Staff costs - £141,000
Professional - £30,000
Rent - £87,000
Maintenance - £118,000
Various - £1,000

General administration expenditure = £159,000. This includes staff costs of £92,000 and the balance on items such as insurance, postage, telephone calls and professional fees.

Clubhouse expenditure - £172,000 broken down by:
Rates - £67,000
Lighting and heat - £35,000
Maintenance - £15,000
Cleaning - £30,000
Staff Costs - £16,000
Various - £11,000

Taking into account depreciation and other sundry item total expenditure = £784,000.

This is against an income of £893,000.
Golf related income was £819,000 (subs, entrance fees, visitor green fees and locker rents.)
Bar and catering income was £57,000 (sales were £468,000 minus cost of sales of £188,000, staff costs of £206,000 and various of £17,000.)

So surplus for the year (less corporation tax) was a steady £105,000.

Hope this helps.

[Niall C]

Not hugely different from my club but cheaper.  How many members and what  dues?  Our dues are 400 a month roughly.  The point I am trying to understand why is the typical UK club cheaper than a typical US club, not a Merion or Winged foot.

Dan

$400 month would put your club in the top 5% (maybe top 1%!) most expensive in England.  The difference is likely number of members.  The average English club may have twice as many members as the average US club.  The usual mantra is there is no virtue in an empty course.

Ciao   

Sean

Don't know for sure but I suspect that the amount of members in the average club probably won't have changed too much over the years. The difference between now and the old days is that nowadays the average golfer plays a lot more golf.

Niall

[Adrian_Stiff]

In the UK we look for 40,000 rounds as a very full course. The average golf member plays 40 times, so in theory you could have 1000 members of an 18 hole course, what happens is that team matches, 1st 2nd 3rs straggler captain ladies junior senio eat into the rounds, vistors, club opens, societies.... so perhaps 700 members is more comfortable. I would say the average UK membership is £700 per year thats about $1000. I would also say that $2000 per year takes you into the top few per cent, except say a 50 mile radius around London.... almost everything inside that circle would be twice what it might be elsewhere. The furher north you go the cheaper, I am guessing but Brora mihjy be $700 per year.

[Jon Wiggett]

Niall,

yes you are correct. In the past you could say that probably up to 1/3 of the membership was dormant (paying the membership but rarely playing). At Howley Hall which is a well respected club just outside Leeds my boss had been there for best part of 20 years by 1990 and had not met over 30 of the members and others only at social functions. The vast majority did not play at all between November & March up to the end of the 80's. Clubs did not have to pay for bar staff in the winter and heating costs were much lower. On top of that most players did not have such high expectations on what should be provided.

The big difference is that these days clubs are seen/run as businesses rather than members clubs. Members seem to have lost the conection between what is spent to run the club and what the membership fee is. If things are kept simple then it is possible to run an 18 hole course on a £150K but this would be a no frills operation.

Jon

[Adrian_Stiff]

John - Can you show me your breakdown for 150K

[JMEvensky]

In the UK we look for 40,000 rounds as a very full course. The average golf member plays 40 times, so in theory you could have 1000 members of an 18 hole course, what happens is that team matches, 1st 2nd 3rs straggler captain ladies junior senio eat into the rounds, vistors, club opens, societies.... so perhaps 700 members is more comfortable. I would say the average UK membership is £700 per year thats about $1000. I would also say that $2000 per year takes you into the top few per cent, except say a 50 mile radius around London.... almost everything inside that circle would be twice what it might be elsewhere. The furher north you go the cheaper, I am guessing but Brora mihjy be $700 per year.

40 annual rounds per member is a large number.I'd bet not many US clubs could get close.

[Dan Byrnes]

For you UK folks how central is the club to you life.  My club in the US is my primary social spot.  I play golf rounds there but just as often I'll stop by to be social and have a beer or talk with whomever is hanging around, watch golf on tv..  Also will go and bit the range, chip and putt.  If I am not home or at work I am most likely found at the club.

When I was club president my business plan was opposite of my predecessors.  Lower prices and more members.  Instead of 200 paying 6K annually (which in my area limits the potential client base and also causes people to make difficult choices regarding other leisure activities or the cost per round) I was moving towards 300 at 4k which is the cheap end of things.  Also the more people the more alternative revenue for
Carts, lessons, food and beverage etc.  At 300 the course would be busy but more than manageable.

If your an avid UK golf member do you play every Saturday and Sunday morning at say the same time all season.  Is there enough availability to handle all the requests typically?  When my club as closer to 300 members we did mid 20k in rounds for
April/May - November.  In the US I think members expect excellent access considering the price paid.  Also one of the reasons to join a club is too avoid long rounds and get better conditions than typically available publIc options.

My understanding is slow play isn't really a problem in the UK as it is in the US.  

Lastly is the typical avid UK golfer a club member or are their publIc options as well.  Seemingly some of the UK clubs are more like the season pass concept at a US public or Muni course without the 6 hour rounds and perhaps the yahoos?

Dan

[Adrian_Stiff]

Dan - Slow play is a UK problem too, you will get slow play if the course is full. Generally people play once a week, courses are very busy on Saturdays and Sundays, Saturday players and Sunday players are usually different. You have various groups that play in their times, some like early mornings on a Tyesday, others perhaps have Wednesday afternoon off. You get people that dont play in the winter times, you get some that want to be a member of a golf club and just play 8 times a year, but those people are getting less and less.
Only 3 in 10 use the clubhouse most people 70% just want the golf. I am guessing that about only 15% practice.

[Niall C]

Dan

We get our fair share of yahoos in the UK and we also get slow play as well, whether to the same extent as you I don't know.

When I was younger and initiated into golf I was taught all the basics of etiquette before I got any serious golf lessons. Most people playing golf had probably been brought up the same way. The golf boom of 90's and early noughties in contrast brought in a lot of new golfers who didn't have that grounding consequently standards have slipped overall. We all know it only takes one slow group to hold up a whole course, and its not necessarily because they are slow but its because they won't let anyone through.

Niall

[Sean_A]

I too think 40 rounds is a high average - for the entire year at all courses let alone at one's club.  

Dan

There is always going to be a hard core element to any club - the guys who seem to not to have a home. This, however, is a very small section of the club - maybe 5% tops. Beyond these hard core guys is another 5% who rarely miss the weekly comp.  Then there is the has beens who still wield power, but play much less than in younger days.  Essentially, clubs run around these 60-90 members.  At your typical club the tee is often available if one is reasonably flexible and comps can often be entered quite late.  Much will depend on the type of club we are talking about.  Obviously, 2 ball clubs will often be more busy on weekends, but can still be quite dead during the week.  Some clubs that are better known are used more for county/regional/national comps and this can cause some congestion - often one will have to plan in advance to obtain a tee time.  Then there is everything inbetween - your typical club which is not hard at all to access if one avoids the well known congested times.  There is no one size fits all.

Ciao      

[Adrian_Stiff]

A lot of clubs have a band of members that will play 100 times per year, generally seniors. At some clubs they might have 40 members that go triple figures, so perhaps those push the average up. 40 equates to your once a week man there are 52 weeks in the year and in the main people play once a week but its suprising how many weekends they do miss, there is a tremendous band of golfers that play between 30 and 60 times. There are a lot of sub 15s too and if these people realise they are not getting their monies worth, this is the vulnerable zone where most members are lost from.

[JMEvensky]

A lot of clubs have a band of members that will play 100 times per year, generally seniors. At some clubs they might have 40 members that go triple figures, so perhaps those push the average up. 40 equates to your once a week man there are 52 weeks in the year and in the main people play once a week but its suprising how many weekends they do miss, there is a tremendous band of golfers that play between 30 and 60 times. There are a lot of sub 15s too and if these people realise they are not getting their monies worth, this is the vulnerable zone where most members are lost from.

Your last line is true over here as well.The biggest fear any club should have is that members start figuring their per round cost.

Maybe the biggest difference between US and UK clubs is that,in the US,there's a greater willingness to pay more for a less crowded golf course.Just using my very small sample,the people I know,the idea is to move your way up the club ladder--with no tee times required as the Holy Grail.

[Jon Wiggett]

Adrian,

Wages 2 x Greensstaff = 50K
Maintenance Costs      =  45K
Taxes & Insurance      =  25K
Diverses, cards etc.     =  15k


Total                         =  135K

As I said this would be a no frills operation. No Clubhouse, use a local pub, no pro shop, club administration done by membership. But if you only want to play the course then why not. I would say that most players just pop into the pro shop to collect a card and only go into the locker rooms to use the toilet and collect clubs. I would think that 50% of players do not stop after the round to use the club house facillities so why bother with them?

Jon

[Adrian_Stiff]

How about rent for the land and also the rates. I can see how this low budget could work for a 9 holer, but I think an 18 holer wont escape machinery repairs and machinery replacements, if its leased then it must be 20K per year if you have bought it then it is 20K per year depreciation. 18 holes should substantiate an eat and drink facility, if a pubs nearby yes it can work, but to get it down to 150K I think you need the alignment of the stars.
I would probably think that these real low costers would only exist in a 9 hole form where even the members go out and mow etc, as soon as you go 18 holes with no money and presumably not many players, it seems just twice the work.

[Mark Chaplin]

£250pm or £3000pa membership defintely top 1% in the UK. Where charges more certainly Wentworth and Stoke Park.
Wisley & Queenwood??

[Jon Wiggett]

Adrian,

what if the land is owned by the club or is gifted at the price of £1 per year rent? Rates £3000 would cover it. What do you really need to maintain a course. Tractor, set of gang mowers, Topper, local sheep farmer, couple of hand mowers and a flymo can be enough.

Quote '18 holes should substantiate an eat and drink facility'

You seem to be imposing your assumption/expectations on this. Yes it would be normal but no it is not necessary.

Adrian, there are several 9 hole courses working on well under £100K so 18 for £150K is feasible

Jon

[Mark Pearce]

I reckon a few more are "every competition" players than Sean does.  Perhaps 15-20%.  There are also members at my club who pay their subs and play once or twice a year.

[Sean_A]

I reckon a few more are "every competition" players than Sean does.  Perhaps 15-20%.  There are also members at my club who pay their subs and play once or twice a year.

Mark 

15% puts the same 90 people in every comp.  In the four clubs I belong(ed) to the number was not anywhere near that high - then we have the "others" to add.  Usually, a good turnout is 50-60 golfers.  Anything close to 100 is VERY rare in my experience.

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,

Howley Hall had 130 plus in its comps played every weekend through the summer and around 100 through the winter though often played over 13 holes. Mark is correct atleast for some clubs.

Jon

[Adrian_Stiff]

I reckon a few more are "every competition" players than Sean does.  Perhaps 15-20%.  There are also members at my club who pay their subs and play once or twice a year.

i have 92 members that have played less than 3 times (though we do have a £150 per year category) I have 1 FULL member that has not played for 3 years but still pays on standing order.
Our competitions average 90, they go up to 150 for the bigger stuff.

[Dan Byrnes]

I reckon a few more are "every competition" players than Sean does.  Perhaps 15-20%.  There are also members at my club who pay their subs and play once or twice a year.

i have 92 members that have played less than 3 times (though we do have a £150 per year category) I have 1 FULL member that has not played for 3 years but still pays on standing order.
Our competitions average 90, they go up to 150 for the bigger stuff.

That is a benefit to the club.  It's great to havea bunch of folks who don't use it and are still happy to be members.  That happens here to.  I played at Quaker Ridge a couple of years with a member who had only been there once in the last three years, wasn't into golf but his inlaws were members so he joined when the opportunity arose.

Dan