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jeffwarne

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Re: Trump Aberdeen course
« Reply #75 on: November 03, 2011, 06:08:56 PM »
Tom

Thats an interesting insight into how these things come about. I well recall Fazio being wheeled out for the cameras and making some statement along the lines that the land was so good that all you needed to do was "put in the irrigation and the cartpath". That went out on the teatime national news. I nearly choked on my dinner when I heard it. I seem to recall Fazio was sidelined shortly thereafter.

Brian

If it doesn't trun out to be the "best course in the world" don't necessarily blame Hawtree. As Tom D observed, all those towering dunes bring their own drawbacks and don't necessarily provide the ideal terrain to build a course. Is it going to be like playing through one long corridor of dunes for instance ? I suggest a less spectacular dunescape might provide a better course, after all Muirfield manages to get by.

Niall

The land does look to be severe.
Very hard to tell anything from the pictures though.
I've seen pictures on this site of courses I know very well that ae quite playable and wide, that look impossible in a picture.

I do have a preference for links courses that are set on a more subtle landscape, but again it will be interesting to see the outcome.
Pretty sure I'm not the target market though.....
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Aberdeen course
« Reply #76 on: November 11, 2011, 09:48:45 AM »
I've just been sent a series of up to date glamourous photos of the course... It gives by far the best view yet (of every hole)... I am sure these photos are doing the rounds and thus someone else will post them...

I have to say that they look very exciting...

I'm sure some will find elements to moan about - the slightly homogenous look of the tees and bunkers and the extent of the latter probably - but some of the greens look lovingly shaped, there appears to be plenty more room than the previous photos showed, the bunkers (though numerous) are clearly placed with strategy in mind, and there are some holes with a wider open feel (i.e. not all just through valleys)...

I think there is no doubt this course will be a winner... It might not be what Tom or C&C would have come up with... But it looks good to my eyes...

To say you will pass up playing it for any reason other than value for money or a real moral stance on environmental issues (real or supposed) will be to cut off your nose to spite your face...

Jud_T

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Re: Trump Aberdeen course
« Reply #77 on: November 11, 2011, 10:19:07 AM »

To say you will pass up playing it for any reason other than value for money or a real moral stance on environmental issues (real or supposed) will be to cut off your nose to spite your face...

So you're saying it's a Doak 7 before putting a peg in the ground?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Aberdeen course
« Reply #78 on: November 11, 2011, 10:29:41 AM »

To say you will pass up playing it for any reason other than value for money or a real moral stance on environmental issues (real or supposed) will be to cut off your nose to spite your face...

So you're saying it's a Doak 7 before putting a peg in the ground?

I don't know what a Doak 7 is...

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Aberdeen course
« Reply #79 on: November 11, 2011, 10:31:14 AM »
7
An excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles. You can expect to find soundly designed, interesting holes, good course conditioning and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Aberdeen course
« Reply #80 on: November 11, 2011, 10:38:51 AM »
7
An excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles. You can expect to find soundly designed, interesting holes, good course conditioning and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf.


Sounds like a Doak 7 to me then...

I'd certainly want to be having a look in if I was within 100 miles...

Of course, if you have 15 other Doak 7's within the same 100 miles and you only have 7 days, then maybe you don't... That's irrelevant... I'm interested in seeing it above almost all others because it's a newly designed links course on a spectacular site...

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Trump Aberdeen course
« Reply #81 on: November 12, 2011, 01:08:54 PM »
I expected Brian Ewen to post these but in his absence...

I'm not sure who these photos belong to so apologies for breaching any copyright... This is a taster of what I was sent anyway...


Trump Aberdeen 3rd by Ally McIntosh, on Flickr


Trump Aberdeen 5th by Ally McIntosh, on Flickr


Trump Aberdeen 6th by Ally McIntosh, on Flickr


Trump Aberdeen 7th by Ally McIntosh, on Flickr


Trump Aberdeen 8th by Ally McIntosh, on Flickr


Trump Aberdeen 10th by Ally McIntosh, on Flickr


Trump Aberdeen 14th by Ally McIntosh, on Flickr


Trump Aberdeen 18th by Ally McIntosh, on Flickr


John Kirk

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Re: Trump Aberdeen course
« Reply #82 on: November 12, 2011, 01:19:00 PM »
Thanks for the wonderful photos, Ally.  Doesn't that look nice.


Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Trump Aberdeen course
« Reply #83 on: November 12, 2011, 01:42:42 PM »
Thanks for all the wonderful photos.  This series of posts is living proof of quick conclusions and judgements before the facts are in. It has been declared a Doak 7 and a likely Open rotation course. I actually laughed harder at the Open rotation comment. Let them open the course and lets see what we have there. Maybe even let it mature for a few years. I cannot imagine having Trump as a co-designer. What a piece of work that blow hard is. There are some guys you pray do not join your golf club and he is one. I liked him better as a Presidential candidate. Then he made such a fool of himself, he was John Stewart and other late night talk show hosts, easy material source dream come true.

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Trump Aberdeen course
« Reply #84 on: November 12, 2011, 04:43:09 PM »
Brian, Point well made. Do not worry Trump has already said it.

Peter Sayegh

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Re: Trump Aberdeen course
« Reply #85 on: November 12, 2011, 05:02:54 PM »
Thanks for all the wonderful photos.  This series of posts is living proof of quick conclusions and judgements before the facts are in. It has been declared a Doak 7 and a likely Open rotation course. I actually laughed harder at the Open rotation comment. Let them open the course and lets see what we have there. Maybe even let it mature for a few years. I cannot imagine having Trump as a co-designer. What a piece of work that blow hard is. There are some guys you pray do not join your golf club and he is one. I liked him better as a Presidential candidate. Then he made such a fool of himself, he was John Stewart and other late night talk show hosts, easy material source dream come true.

Tiger,
No agenda here but I gotta ask. Have you met him? Leaving his self-indulgence aside, has he lowered the GCA bar? I like his passion for golf. If you think it's financially driven, fine. There  are other avenues he could (and does) probably seek profit-and notoriety. I don't see the downside. Call me naive.
I'd love to have him a member at my club. He loves to play. I'm sure he's got great stories. He's seen courses I'll never see and will brag about it. Fine. I've seen his game, I'm sure I could make a buck.
Peter

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Aberdeen course
« Reply #86 on: November 12, 2011, 05:29:09 PM »
Peter, I think it is wonderful that you would enjoy hanging with him. We have a big country and the world of clubs is diverse. I am very upfront in my feelings about that personality type. I do not like to be around or play golf with people who spend 90% of their time telling you how smart, well connected and rich they are. It is usually done in a loud voice.  As for his connection to golf. The sport and real estate sales are connected. I do not see where he has done any harm to the game of golf. He just has a gift for loudness. There are many big time real estate developers who have golf courses as part of their projects. I do not hear them talk about their greatness constantly either. Trump reminds me of those leaf blowers which you cannot avoid hearing at a residential golf development. It is an offensive sound and cannot be ignored. Thank goodness Carmel and Pebble Beach banned them many years ago. I guess they banned Trump too or I certainly hope so.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Aberdeen course
« Reply #87 on: November 12, 2011, 07:38:51 PM »

I'd love to have him a member at my club. He loves to play. I'm sure he's got great stories. He's seen courses I'll never see and will brag about it. Fine.
Peter

You may want to chat with some of his current fellow club members as background first.  It will save you needing a new pair of shorts at the membership committee meeting for starters...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Niall C

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Re: Trump Aberdeen course
« Reply #88 on: November 13, 2011, 09:45:57 AM »
Tiger

I don't know why you think that this course being an Open candidate is so outlandish. Design and quality of the course aren't the only criteria although I would be surprised if it didn't get a tick in the box on both counts. It doesn't need to be a world beater, it just needs to be of a good enough quality. I would be very surprised that with Hawtree as architect, the budget they had and the potential of the site. What would be more relevant would be infrastructure, hotels, demographics etc.

Having said that, I would like to see how c.40,000 people could easily move round that site given the off course terrain.

Niall

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Aberdeen course
« Reply #89 on: November 13, 2011, 10:35:50 AM »
Ally,great pics, thanks. We all know how the camera tends to flatten landscapes, which makes this even more impressive.  The shaping and tie-ins are of a very high qualiity, seamless.  Just from the pictures, I would start with an 8, not a 7, especially considering all the hoops they had to jump through.

As for DT as an owner, I hope this alllows those not in our profession an unabashed insight into what we deal with.  Sure, sometimes we get lucky and get the ideal owner, but more times than not, a person with the same traits as DT is who we end up working for. And you all sit there and wonder why we just don't do this, or do that.  See Lester Georges response to the "what have you architects learned?" thread.
Coasting is a downhill process

Brian_Ewen

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Re: Trump Aberdeen course
« Reply #90 on: November 16, 2011, 07:11:20 PM »
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/donald_trump_on_course_to_produce_something_special_1_1967575

Donald Trump on course to produce something specialThe Trump International Golf Links is taking impressive shape among the dunes at Menie Estate north of Aberdeen, and this view of the par-3 13th hole in the autumn sunlight gives a flavour of the spectacular nature of the course designed by Martin Hawtree
By Martin Dempster
Published on Wednesday 16 November 2011 12:14


At first sight, it appears the billionaire’s new links at Balmedie may just live up to the hype


THEY’RE an odd couple. One is bold and brash, the other quiet and unassuming. Between them, however, Donald Trump and Martin Hawtree have managed to create what looks sure to be a new jewel in Scotland’s golfing crown.

People laughed when Trump, speaking in St Andrews of all places, announced just over five years ago that he was going to create “the greatest golf course in the world”.

It still seems optimistic, and it is difficult to provide a verdict without having played the course. And who knows what effect the elements could visit on the course over the years, with the beautiful courses at Loch Lomond and Castle Stuart both having experienced unpleasant surprises in recent years.

But a visit to Trump International Golf Links near Aberdeen ahead of its opening next summer suggests that there is substance to the grand billing.

On a 2.9-mile stretch of dunes at Menie Estate, Trump and his designer, Englishman Hawtree, have crafted a course that is set to take the golfing world by storm.

Having already pumped £50 million into the project, you could say that was only to be expected but that would be an insult to the ingenuity that has been put into it by both men.

It’s hard to imagine Hawtree, a quietly-spoken individual, not hearing the words “you’re fired” beyond the first episode on Trump’s original US version of The Apprentice but the pair have gelled.

“The chemistry between them is magic,” said Sarah Malone, executive vice president of Trump International Scotland. “Mr Trump’s the visionary, the big thinker and ideas guy. But, when Martin speaks in his quiet way, everybody listens.”

He already had the R&A’s ear, having been commissioned by them to make changes to three Open Championship courses – Carnoustie, Royal Birkdale and Muirfield – in recent years. It’s unlikely, however, that Hawtree has ever worked for anyone with deeper pockets than Trump, who has given his architect full backing over every tweak he’s wanted to make in order to create something very special indeed near the village of Balmedie.

“This is a project that is really close to Mr Trump’s heart,” added Malone. “He’s passionate about the game and this place. No expense has been spared – it’s clear it’s a labour of love.”

Trump will never be everyone’s cup of tea, particularly in a land where brashness is viewed with suspicion but Malone asked: “Judge us on the basis of what we build.”

So I headed north with an open mind but not imagining the Trump course would come anywhere close to the likes of Muirfield and Royal Birkdale. Perhaps there was scepticism from hearing a self-publicist like Trump have the audacity to breeze into the home of golf and claim he has was going to create the world’s greatest course.

But the “wow factor” is undeniable. It’s the dunes that do it. Other courses in Scotland have been laid out behind magnificent sand hills and part of the front nines at both Royal Aberdeen and Turnberry, to name but two, run through imposing dunes. However, it’s easy to see why Hawtree describes the land as “more like the west coast of Ireland than the east coast of Scotland”.

Ballybunion springs to mind, although the Trump course is probably even more spectacular overall and that’s why it has the potential to become the latest addition to the list of “must-play” courses, not just in Scotland but the world.

It consists of ten par-4, four par-3 and four par-5 holes.

The two short holes on the front nine are gems – don’t be fooled by the fact there’s just one bunker on each of them. The trouble around the green at the third, for example, includes an estuary that isn’t totally visible from the tee, while it’s a full carry at the sixth, where a quarter of the putting surface is masked by one of those dunes.

The par-5 fourth could become one of the most-talked about holes in Scottish golf due to it being so dramatic from tee to green, while the fifth, one of the shortest par-4s on the course, has heather hazards on top of bunkers as well as a full field of heather on the left. The tenth has a double fairway and dramatic entrance to the green, while the back tee at the 11th is the highest on the course at around 120 feet above sea level.

Another excellent par-3 awaits at the 13th before the walk towards the 14th tee and the course’s “signature hole” fuels a feeling of expectancy with every step. From the elevated tee, the North Sea is roaring on your right and, on a good day, you can see Slains Castle, Bram Stoker’s inspiration for Dracula, in the distance.

The hole itself is a par-4 that snakes between dunes and doesn’t require a single bunker to add dramatic effect.

By contrast, the 18th has 18 bunkers, the majority of which are located around the green. It also has natural wetland on the left and is a fitting finale.

It’s no surprise that some of those involved in the construction phase decided to stay on. Irishman John Bambury, for instance, was hired as a consultant grow-in manager but has just accepted a permanent position as links superintendent.

“You get one shot at a site like this,” said Bambury of the attention to detail shown by both Trump and Hawtree. Trump has paid three visits this year and is expected back in the spring.

“I didn’t have a clue just how involved he would be,” added Bambury. “He’s very knowledgable, not just about the game of golf itself but also when it comes to the architectural side.”

It was the developer’s decision, no doubt, to create a 22-acre driving range and a 3,000-square metre putting green, the latter having been dubbed ‘The Andes’ by Hawtree in likening the challenge to the one faced on ‘The Himalayas’ at St Andrews.

The ambition to host a European Tour event such as the Scottish Open is one thing but the Open Championship is a different matter and, ironically, the dramatic nature of some holes may give Trump most trouble convincing the R&A of his course’s suitability for the world’s oldest major. But there are places at Turnberry and Royal St George’s where it’s not exactly comfortable to walk and, having already laid ten acres of pathways, Trump is gearing his course up to move plenty of spectators around.

The course is destined to win a host of design awards and could break into the world’s top 20 courses in record time. And, if first impressions are anything to go by, it may well one day be looked at by the R&A in terms of a new venue for the Open Championship.

Robert Thompson

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Re: Trump Aberdeen course
« Reply #91 on: November 16, 2011, 07:23:56 PM »
An odd article in that it doesn't talk to Trump nor Hawtree, who isn't exactly a tough guy to get on the phone. Instead it relies on others talking about the pair.

I have no idea whether the course is anything other than 'dramatic' from this story.

My real question is where is the waterfall? Is it part of the "natural wetland" on 18 that's discussed in the story?

Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Kris Shreiner

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Re: Trump Aberdeen course
« Reply #92 on: November 16, 2011, 09:22:07 PM »
If Machrihanish Dunes is seen as a tough walk, what will the Trumposity Links jaunt do to mere mortals? The Donald better have the Medevac chopper on standby and one hell of a fit caddie staff. The height and density of the perimeter sward looks like ball gobbler city. Well Happy Thanksgiving to the golf world and the Christmas present we've all been waitng for is nearly finished...On the first day of Christmas Santa gave to me ...a million balls and the greatest Links Trumposity! ;D

Cheers to the Donald,
Kris 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Jud_T

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Re: Trump Aberdeen course
« Reply #93 on: November 17, 2011, 08:53:58 AM »


Ballybunion springs to mind, although the Trump course is probably even more spectacular overall and that’s why it has the potential to become the latest addition to the list of “must-play” courses, not just in Scotland but the world.

The course is destined to win a host of design awards and could break into the world’s top 20 courses in record time. And, if first impressions are anything to go by, it may well one day be looked at by the R&A in terms of a new venue for the Open Championship.


Someone apparently has drunk the Kool-Aid...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Aberdeen course
« Reply #94 on: November 17, 2011, 12:58:06 PM »
An odd article in that it doesn't talk to Trump nor Hawtree, who isn't exactly a tough guy to get on the phone. Instead it relies on others talking about the pair.

I have no idea whether the course is anything other than 'dramatic' from this story.

My real question is where is the waterfall? Is it part of the "natural wetland" on 18 that's discussed in the story?



Robert

I was thinking something similar. Sarah Malone who gets all the quotes is basically Trumps on site PR who's there to basically sell the real estate. From what I've seen in the photos I'm perfectly willing to believe it has top ten potential but the impression I get from Martin Dempsters writing is that he was well wined and dined. This piece doesn't really smack of no nonsense journalism. In fairness he does raise the issue of how readily crowds could get round this course.

Niall

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