Presidents Cup at RM

[William_G]

here you go Billl...

link to a pdf

http://i.cdn.turner.com/pgatour/docs/pdf/Pcup_course_map_2011_27.9.11.pdf

[David Kelly]

Tweet of the Day:

@DanHicksNBC Melbourne one of most expensive cities in world. Just paid 9 bucks for bowl of cereal and OJ! Checking to c if I have enough cash for coffee

Dan must never have had to pay for breakfast in New York.

Dan Hicks should tweet about the per diem he gets as well.  I'm betting it covers his breakfast.

[Chris Kane]

What an extraordinary day. Like Warwick did yesterday, I sat by the 4th green (6W) and watched all six groups go through. It was absolute carnage with the hole cut front left, with many of the world's best players torn to ribbons by the wind, the slope and the speed of the green.

My friends didn't know what to think when I predicted that any player who hit their approach shot into the back left bunker had no chance of getting up and down, and a very slim chance of keeping their ball on the green if they hit it anywhere remotely in the direction of the hole. 

7 of 24 players visited the back left bunker, and several hit stunning bunker shots. None stayed on the green, only one was even close. In addition, Bubba Watson's birdie putt from the back of the green rolled off the front as well. I'll be interested to read the players' reactions to this hole, because I thought it played extremely difficult but also very fair. Well judged approach shots left very makeable birdie putts, with Tiger and Mickelson benefiting from excellent approaches.

While its fun to see professionals ruining their cards on holes like 6W, I think that this hole is better suited to matchplay, because it forces players to attempt recovery shots around the greens that they wouldn't even consider in a strokeplay tournament.

More broadly, today was easily the toughest I've seen a sandbelt course play (I've only been watching golf since the late 90s). Interested to hear how it stacks up to some of those tournaments in the 70s and 80s which are part of Australian golfing folklore.

[Tom Birkert]

I am loving the look of the course, the way the bunkers eat into the edges of the greens with no collar of rough around them. Not to mention I love quick greens, and these look comparable to Oakmont.

My girlfriend's father lives in Melbourne, a visit might well be on the cards as soon as possible.

[Kevin Pallier]

More broadly, today was easily the toughest I've seen a sandbelt course play (I've only been watching golf since the late 90s). Interested to hear how it stacks up to some of those tournaments in the 70s and 80s which are part of Australian golfing folklore.

Chris

The only day that I can recall that seemed harder was the one when they were blown off the greens at RM ?

It was fascinating watching - loved seeing them trying to go for the front pin on 3 and Bubba's putt from above the hole on 4 had me in stitches.

RM is now back to what it was like in the 80's.

[David_Elvins]

How good was ten west playing downwind in a 4ball!

Players hitting in the drive bunker, in the greenside bunker, over the green, on the green, laying up and pitching on, laying up and pitching over the green.  Bubba Watson trying to drive the green with an iron!  I reckon I saw that hole played more ways in 1 hour today than I have in all the previous tournaments I have seen at Royal Melbourne.  With older equipment and strokeplay conditions that hole is an iron adn a wedge for 90% of the field.  The improved equipment and the format of this event has made this hole even better than what it once was. 

[Dean Stokes]

Can someone please get those in charge of the Ryder Cup to watch this?

Could you explain why please Jud? Obviously a great location/course but for me the event is one day too long. Perhaps they should watch the Ryder Cup and see how itis done in 2 days.

[Jud_T]

Can someone please get those in charge of the Ryder Cup to watch this?

Could you explain why please Jud? Obviously a great location/course but for me the event is one day too long. Perhaps they should watch the Ryder Cup and see how itis done in 2 days.

Would you prefer to watch the type of golf we're seeing at RM or what we saw (will see) at these courses?:

Celtic Manor
Valhalla
K Club
Belfry
Valderamma

[Dean Stokes]

Jud, I 100% prefer to see golf on a course like this as do another 1499 people on this site. I doubt the rest of the golf world could care less. Honestly. I went to the Belfry years ago and never heard a bad word about the course!!!! Unfortunately it is not about the course...it's about getting forty thousand fans in viewing locations to watch 4 matches.....it's also about logistics....and it's also about money! Of course I would love to watch 2 days of golf at Swinley Forest....it will probably never happen. Can a just say again I think the Presidents Cup should go to the two day format. The third day dilutes the event for me......purely an opinion.

[Michael George]

I seriously question the PGA's decision making on course selection lately.  Re: PGA Championship courses, I am looking forward to this year at the Ocean Course at Kiawah.  However, I am sure that they could find more interesting courses than many of their picks.  Their Ryder Cup picks are really questionable.

Here are the PGA Championship courses:

2003 Oak Hill
2004 Whistling Straits
2005 Baltusrol
2006 Medinah
2007 Southern Hills
2008 Oakland Hills
2009 Hazeltine
2010 Whistling Straits
2011 Atlanta Athletic Club
2012 Kiawah
2013 Oak Hill Country Club, East Course
2014 Valhalla Golf Club
2015 Whistling Straits
2016 Baltustrol Golf Club, Lower Course
2017 Quail Hollow Club

Here are the Ryder Cup Courses:

2004 Oakland Hills
2008 Valhalla
2012 Medinah
2016 Hazeltine
2020 Whistling Straits

[Dean Stokes]

My mistake Michael....3 days as opposed to 4!

[Tim Pitner]

I apologize if someone touched on this elsewhere, but why are the fairway-green transitions a different grass (fescue) than the fairways?  At least from overhead on television, I find this more visually jarring than the dark greens.

I'm very much enjoying watching the event and the course is a big part of that.  For all the talk of a home course advantage for the Int'ls, that only applies to certain players.  Apart from KJ Choi, the Asian players who play in Asia or on the U.S. tour don't seem to be adapting too well to the conditions at RM.

[Jason Topp]

I apologize if someone touched on this elsewhere, but why are the fairway-green transitions a different grass (fescue) than the fairways?  At least from overhead on television, I find this more visually jarring than the dark greens.

I'm very much enjoying watching the event and the course is a big part of that.  For all the talk of a home course advantage for the Int'ls, that only applies to certain players.  Apart from KJ Choi, the Asian players who play in Asia or on the U.S. tour don't seem to be adapting too well to the conditions at RM.

Tim - reply 4 describes it. 

[Tim Pitner]

Thanks Jason, good information from Warwick there. 

I don't think I saw, though, an explanation for why the fescue was put in around the greens. 

[Gary Slatter]

Did Freddie take his team to Orlando to practice putting on the Treasure Island Pirate's Cove ?

How often does the wind blow from the North as it did yesterday?

When the world's best players were struggling to make pars, would an 18 handicapper notice the difficulty, or woul they finish?

[Mark Chaplin]

Gary the firmness and speed of the greens make it exceptionally difficult to score. A couple of times I hit perfect sand wedges into 1st on the composite and never held the green. The par 3 third is really tough if you get above the hole as is 4th and 5th. As soon as you get out of position the course crucifies the amateur who cannot get loads of spin on bunker and short approach shots. In the conditions we are seeing low 90s would be a great score for a 10 handicapper.

[jonathan_becker]

To me, having not been down to Melbourne yet, the best part of this event is finally being able to actually see how the golf course PLAYS.  Hearing from others that have played it and looking at photos is great, but watching the ball in action on the course has been fun.  Next, is to now go play it myself!

[BHoover]

Becker, I agree with your comments about Royal Melbourne. I was in Chicago this week for work, but when I got home last night I finally had a chance to see some of the TV coverage.  I'm blown away by how fantastic RM appears to be.  The firmness of the course, especially the greens is amazing.  But the bunkering is what really blows my mind.  I absolutely love that the edges of many of the bunkers go right up to the green surfaces.  From my limited experience, and from viewing the coverage on TV, this may be the best course in the world.

I think my dream trip may be to Australia, rather than Scotland.  I just need to convince my wife to let me go...easier said than done.

[Gary Slatter]

Gary the firmness and speed of the greens make it exceptionally difficult to score. A couple of times I hit perfect sand wedges into 1st on the composite and never held the green. The par 3 third is really tough if you get above the hole as is 4th and 5th. As soon as you get out of position the course crucifies the amateur who cannot get loads of spin on bunker and short approach shots. In the conditions we are seeing low 90s would be a great score for a 10 handicapper.

Thanks Mark.   My new question is:  if a 10 handicapper would shoot in the 90s, would an 18 handicapper shoot much over 100?    I feel the way RM was playing yesterday both a 10 and an 18 might shoot similar high scores.
I love the bunkering cutting into the greens, Norman had done this at the Medalist and it presented a more testing approach.

[Mike_Clayton]

Gary,

An average 18 handicap playing in Friday's conditions couldn't break 120. For a start he would three putt at least a dozen greens and there are many bunker shots he would have no chance of getting onto the green.

The hot north wind off the desert blows maybe 15 days from about now until the end of February. It always changes to the south, as it did last night, at about six o'clock. This morning - it's 6.15 here - it has just stopped raining and it is very still and quite cool.The golf will be much different today and a lot easier.

[James Bennett]

Friday was unbelievably hot, dry and windy.  Probably 95 degrees F plus, gusty winds from the hot interior and 20% humidity.

Greens were handwatered after play (ie, just greens, not surrounds).  Play finished at 4.30pm despite the early start - it was really tough out there and RM greens are unforgiving.  The PGA Tour did really well to bring forward play by 2 or so hours.  A huge electrical storm wnet through in an hour about 6.30 pm, and we have had a lot of rain since then.  Probably enough rain to cause delays at other courses but RM's sand will just suck it up.

Todays greens will be fractionally less quick, and slightly more receptive.  There won't be any pitchmarks though (there rarely are at RM).  It will be about 74 degrees F today, with far less wind.

James B

[William_G]

Thanks James B,

Anyone talking about different golf balls being used or different wedges etc... to help get around this masterpiece??

Thanks

[Alex Miller]

Thanks James B,

Anyone talking about different golf balls being used or different wedges etc... to help get around this masterpiece??

Thanks

I am not on site (obviously), but I heard Tiger remark that he finds the balls that everyone uses so similar it hasn't been an issue. I don't know about wedges.

[Bill_McBride]

Thanks Gray Grieve for posting the link to the Presidents Cup routing.   What I was hoping for and would love to see is the entire 36 hole aerial with hole numbers W and E, and the composite routing highlighted.   It seems odd that the composite first tee is out in the middle of the course, but the 18th is right by the clubhouse.

Is there much if any difference between the West and East?   At Walton Heath there is no discernible difference between Old and New and they actually intertwine in a couple of spots I think.   St Andrews Old and New are pretty different in some ways - double greens for sure, and amount and nature of bunkering.

[Sven Nilsen]

Bill:

I can't find a link to a routing of both courses, hopefully those with photoshop skills will chime in.

The two courses are very similar in style, although the West feels a bit bolder in both features and contours.  The bunkering style is identical, and there really are no discernible differences in the maintenance of each.  The East course starts on what is the 11th hole in the composite routing.  It winds around the outside of the the front nine of the West course before eventually crossing the road.  It returns at the same point after 15 to continue on the outside of the West course back to the clubhouse.  If you look at the composite routing, holes 11, 12 and 13 are the first three on the East, with 14, 15 and 16 being the last three holes.

Earlier (or possible on the GC covereage) someone mentioned that MacKenzie did not design the 18th on the East course.  I was under the impression that the 18th was his work, and was moved to part of the East course when the additional property for expansion was obtained.  I'd be interested in getting some background on the history of the expansion and exactly where he had a role in the design.