[Les Cordes]

John ... nothing disrespectful intended ... i will try to capitalize names in the future if it really bothers you that much or sends a negative message .. no problem ..

Richard .. i appreciate your reading my posts ...and reacting to them .. but i think it is better to let grammar issues on a golf web site die a natural death .. substance IMHO should trump form ...


les

[Kalen Braley]

Les,

While not a big deal to me, I can see Richards point of view.  It can be hard to build/gain credibility from others when the grammar is at elementary school level. 

[Les Cordes]

Kalen .. if you feel strongly enough to post another reply ... and for the sake of consistency .. be sure to remind Richard to write in complete sentences ..

[Richard Choi]

It...is...hard...to...grasp...substance...when...rudimentary...grammar...rules...are...not...followed

[Don_Mahaffey]

Oh man, the grammar police are back out. It is hard enough writing here knowing the DG is populated with authors, lawyers, and Ivy leaguers.  I help my kids with math, science, and history, English is my wife’s subject and she is too busy to proof my stuff.
I'm toast if we're clamping down on grammar.

[John Mayhugh]

Capitalization is the difference between helping your Uncle Jack off a horse and helping your uncle...


Back nearer the original topic - Doak's comments about Denver area members really makes a lot of sense.  Having that as a natural market would seem to be an opportunity worth pursuing.

[Richard Choi]

I don't mind grammar errors. People make them all the time, including me.

What Les does is not an error. It is something he actively repeats over and over again. I am just wondering why...

[Tommy Williamsen]

I love Ballyneal. I think is brilliantly routed and elegant in it's rustic setting.  If I lived in Denver, however, I would go to the mountains.  I'd buy a place where I could ski in the winter, hike in the fall and spring and play golf in the summer.  Actually that is what I do now and I live in Maryland.  I wonder how prevalent that attitude is.

[Kalen Braley]

I think Tommy hits on a key point as there already is a lot of really good golf in the Denver area without "needing" to drive 3 hrs out to Ballyneal.

Sure maybe us GCA'ers put a premium on playing that good of a course, and it "only" being 3 hrs from a major metropolitan area is nice, but with the other high end privates in the area, I would suspect the vast majority don't see it that way.  Maybe it really isn't the Denver market it needs to tap into, but the National Club market.

[David Kelly]

I think Tommy hits on a key point as there already is a lot of really good golf in the Denver area without "needing" to drive 3 hrs out to Ballyneal.

Sure maybe us GCA'ers put a premium on playing that good of a course, and it "only" being 3 hrs from a major metropolitan area is nice, but with the other high end privates in the area, I would suspect the vast majority don't see it that way.  Maybe it really isn't the Denver market it needs to tap into, but the National Club market.

If you don't expect someone from Denver to drive 3 hours to play Ballyneal why would you expect someone from Los Angeles, Chicago or New York to take a whole day to get out to Ballyneal?

[George Pazin]

The vast majority aren't needed, just a (good) bit more than what they have. It would be wrong to overlook any potential sources, Denver or national.

[Kalen Braley]

I think Tommy hits on a key point as there already is a lot of really good golf in the Denver area without "needing" to drive 3 hrs out to Ballyneal.

Sure maybe us GCA'ers put a premium on playing that good of a course, and it "only" being 3 hrs from a major metropolitan area is nice, but with the other high end privates in the area, I would suspect the vast majority don't see it that way.  Maybe it really isn't the Denver market it needs to tap into, but the National Club market.

If you don't expect someone from Denver to drive 3 hours to play Ballyneal why would you expect someone from Los Angeles, Chicago or New York to take a whole day to get out to Ballyneal?

Because I would think there is at least a dozen or so people from every major metropolis area who appreciates fine GCA enough to be willing to spring for a membership, especially at the now cheaper rates...and that includes Denver.  So while 8-12 people from Denver isn't enough to keep the place afloat....8-12 people from the 25 largest metro areas would be enough.

In reality, we know the numbers won't work out that evenly, so I'm really only trying to point out that I don't think there would be 200-250 people from Denver willing to do this.  So the club needs to think nationally to make it work, IMO.

[Tom_Doak]

I think Tommy hits on a key point as there already is a lot of really good golf in the Denver area without "needing" to drive 3 hrs out to Ballyneal.

Sure maybe us GCA'ers put a premium on playing that good of a course, and it "only" being 3 hrs from a major metropolitan area is nice, but with the other high end privates in the area, I would suspect the vast majority don't see it that way.  Maybe it really isn't the Denver market it needs to tap into, but the National Club market.

Kalen:

I have to disagree here.

Certainly, there are some good courses in Denver proper -- though not all that many great ones, and nothing with remotely the same sort of character as Ballyneal.

The "National Club market" you describe is dog-eat-dog right now.  There are dozens such courses vying for the same few potential members.  And even some local clubs are starting to create national membership categories to subsidize their business -- Stonewall and Saucon Valley are two that I know of which have done this in the past year.  Then, there are deals like the Outpost Club, taking potential national members off the top and promising them access to multiple courses -- including many of the clubs trying to sell national memberships.

For someone in San Francisco or Seattle or Kansas City, Ballyneal is no more accessible than Rock Creek or Gozzer Ranch [or Bandon or Cabo].  But for someone from Denver, it is uniquely accessible.  Essentially, if they just sucked up a majority of the people in Denver who were in the market for a national club, that would be a good foundation.

[John Kirk]

At GolfClubAtlas.com, there's a long tradition of using proper grammar in one's posts.

How valuable are traveling golfers who can afford a second membership, and have the time and motivation to travel to that club year after year?  How large is this group, and how many have already made their financial and emotional commitments?  How much influence does this group have on other like-minded luxury golfers?  Finally, on average, how many years does the typical traveling golfer have the time, money and motivation to keep returning?

Finally, I disagree with Chris Johnston and Tom Doak, among others, and believe that Ballyneal and Dismal River are competing for members.

[Jud_T]

Again, not knowing the details of the Denver private market, I find it hard to believe there's anything on the quality/$$ scale available as good as Ballyneal 2.0.  There's gotta be 50 guys in Denver who would rather have 1/2 the rounds on a course that's twice as good for 1/2 the price of what's available locally...

[JC Jones]

Les, a serious question.

Why are you waging a war against proper grammar?

So typical that a UM grad would not use proper grammar when criticizing someone else's.

[Tim Martin]

The accolades for the golf course itself as well as one Tom Doak declaring it one of his best has me scratching my head as to how location is not the biggest part of the problem. There are any number of more populated areas where Ballyneal absolutely thrives. And it thrives regardless of the model because it is that good.

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

I really hope you are right, because I would hate to see a place like Ballyneal fail in the long run and dare I say become NLE.  I also really hope the updated pricing structure is able to attract 50-100 guys from Denver.

But as The Threadkiller suspects I too think Dismal and Ballyneal are both competing for the same people more or less, which I have to believe is mostly, (more than 50%), national members.

P.S.  While I agree with you assessment of RCCC, I'd have to think Gozzer is in a slightly different category as its only 45 minutes door-to-door with a major airport in Spokane.  Wine Valley, which is a Doak 8 in my book, is a 3 hours drive from me in Spokane, but on average I only get down there once per year.

[Michael George]

I agree with John Kirk on this one.  As the clubs are currently constituted, Ballyneal and Dismal River are competitors.  There are a limited number of prospective national members and both of these clubs offer the Nebrasaka/Colorado sand hill experience.  They don't work together and each would gladly welcome a member from the other.

However, I also believe that they don't have to be - in fact, they are both so out of the way, they shouldn't be.  If there was a cooperative arrangement between the two clubs, each could drive revenue to the other.  I have to believe that if given the opportunity, a person flying into Denver would love to stay and play a day at Ballyneal on the way to Dismal River.  Likewise, if you were at Ballyneal, I don't know why you would not make the drive for a stay and play at Dismal River.  Kind of like a sandhills golf trail on the private side.  It certainly brings more value to the members.

In addition, anyway you slice it, Denver is going to be the primary market for memberships.   However, Denver is unique due to its hub airport.  There are pretty cheap flights to Chicago, LA and Dallas - which could easily be "secondary" markets.

[Jason Hines]

At GolfClubAtlas.com, there's a long tradition of using proper grammar in one's posts.

How valuable are traveling golfers who can afford a second membership, and have the time and motivation to travel to that club year after year?  How large is this group, and how many have already made their financial and emotional commitments?  How much influence does this group have on other like-minded luxury golfers?  Finally, on average, how many years does the typical traveling golfer have the time, money and motivation to keep returning?

Finally, I disagree with Chris Johnston and Tom Doak, among others, and believe that Ballyneal and Dismal River are competing for members.

Both clubs are equal distance from Kansas City (515 miles) and you would never fly to either one of them.  Too much hassle factor in the end vs. the straight drive.

[Keith Phillips]

I 'third' the notion that the top national destination clubs are, to some extent, in competition for the same members.  I live in New Jersey and have been shopping for a membership for the past few years.  In my case, Ballyneal and Dismal River are both highly appealing, and so is a club like Hidden Creek which is a 2.5 hour drive but far enough that I would qualify as 'national'.  While it is hard to justify any national golf membership on pure economic terms, the social benefits of 'being a member' are very important to me, and I will ultimately pull the trigger.  I would also note that in the Denver market, Colorado Golf Club must be compelling to many of the GCA folk who would find Ballyneal attractive...dues for local membership would certainly be higher, but it's obviously a far easier drive.

[Brian Potash]

I 'third' the notion that the top national destination clubs are, to some extent, in competition for the same members.  I live in New Jersey and have been shopping for a membership for the past few years.  In my case, Ballyneal and Dismal River are both highly appealing, and so is a club like Hidden Creek which is a 2.5 hour drive but far enough that I would qualify as 'national'.  While it is hard to justify any national golf membership on pure economic terms, the social benefits of 'being a member' are very important to me, and I will ultimately pull the trigger.  I would also note that in the Denver market, Colorado Golf Club must be compelling to many of the GCA folk who would find Ballyneal attractive...dues for local membership would certainly be higher, but it's obviously a far easier drive.

Keith,

What are the social benefits of being a member?  What does that mean?

Brian

[Keith Phillips]

For me, being a member brings a sense of 'belonging' - I was a member of Loch Lomond for a decade and really felt at home whenever I would drive through those gates - I got to know the staff and some of the members and still savor those memories.  in this economy, one can certainly arrange a trip or two every year to fine destinations that are public (i.e. Bandon) or even private (certain national clubs can be played periodically by non-members) - the golf will be great, the experience memorable, but for me it wouldn't be the same as being 'a member'.

[Brian Potash]

For me, being a member brings a sense of 'belonging' - I was a member of Loch Lomond for a decade and really felt at home whenever I would drive through those gates - I got to know the staff and some of the members and still savor those memories.  in this economy, one can certainly arrange a trip or two every year to fine destinations that are public (i.e. Bandon) or even private (certain national clubs can be played periodically by non-members) - the golf will be great, the experience memorable, but for me it wouldn't be the same as being 'a member'.

Got it, and agreed.

[Greg Tallman]

Give Chris and his guys a minority position in BN, merge the two clubs to create a dual site club that could eventually have perhaps 108 holes? Could be come the model for a new type of National Club. Have some form of transport option back and forth between the two.. and voila. A can't miss club.  

Call me nuts but I think there is something there.

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