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Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #475 on: March 09, 2012, 03:02:08 PM »
The more pieces of real information that trickle in to me, the sadder i become for the Members, unsecured creditors and those associated with this club. Lets hope over time this becomes a better story than what appears to be the case now. Many of us have friends who are members as well as part of the design team with Tom and know Rupert and Jim. It is a great course. Time will tell. My fingers are crossed.

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #476 on: March 09, 2012, 03:59:28 PM »
Looking at a previous post....

And please forgive me for my financial ignorance...

But why would the founding members put in that much money and not get any equity in return?  It looks like according to Mike, it was half of the money put in overall at 5 Mill, or perhaps even 7 mill as suggested in another post?  Meanwhile, this other guy puts up the other half and owns the entire thing?

I'm trying to think of any business model where I'm a founding investor in a company, put up a substantial amount of money to get it off the ground, and not get any shares/equity in return?  This sounds a bit like a hustle to me, unless I just don't understand the nature of what the original arrangement was.

Kalen - it all depends where you are in the capital stack...
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in Foreclosure
« Reply #477 on: March 09, 2012, 04:01:46 PM »
After learning what everybody on this site was reading I suddenly felt intellectually inadequate to participate in the discussion group.  Thanks to this thread, many otherwise bright people have suddenly come back to the pack.  Proving once again that Dad was right - we're all ignorant, just about different things.  

Knowing nothing about Ballyneal, I realize that sometimes not everybody involved gets the deal they bargained for, regardless of whether their capital contribution is cloaked as equity or debt and that as a result they can ultimately be surprised by where they fell in the pecking order, or as the financial cognoscenti like to call it, the capital stack.   Perhaps capital is raised on a piece-meal basis and side deals are cut without the consent or knowledge of previous capital providers (be they members, lenders or investors).   Folks get screwed.  Again, I know nothing about Ballyneal - I'm just saying it happens.

Bottom line, debt is an unforgiving and inflexible master and absent the stay of bankrupty foreclosure wipes everybody else out.  Think of it this way, when the food is limited, some folks are going to have to be excused from the table and the lender had the only reservation.  In such instances,  everybody loses something.  Being turned away is even more frustrating if the would-be-diners had been told that the establishment doesn't take reservations.  In my work-out experience as a banker, we've never broken even on a foreclosure - not even close.  As a result, I'm hardly inclined to give those wiped out a piece of the action going forward.  Besides, the issue is moot as there isn't any equity to share.  

Bogey
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 05:10:19 PM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Joe Stansell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #478 on: March 09, 2012, 04:02:58 PM »
I'm trying to think of any business model where I'm a founding investor in a company, put up a substantial amount of money to get it off the ground, and not get any shares/equity in return?  This sounds a bit like a hustle to me, unless I just don't understand the nature of what the original arrangement was.

I'm wading into territory where I might get scolded -- that being that I'm totally ignorant of the details behind the Ballyneal deal. That said, it is not uncommon at all for equity holders to be totally taken out by a secured creditor when it all goes bad. Its also is not uncommon for some equity holders to have rights that are preferential to others.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #479 on: March 09, 2012, 04:44:19 PM »
I suppose in retrospect this is true...I was thinking in terms of a "positive" event as my default start position with my last post.

With a negative event, it is a whole different ball game.  I do recall now learning from a previous start up I was involved with that if there was a liquidity/restructuring event, despite the fact that I had shares in the company, I could pretty much count on getting nada ...due to others having preferred shares, and a lot more of them,  as compared to my common shares.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #480 on: March 09, 2012, 04:50:22 PM »
I suppose in retrospect this is true...I was thinking in terms of a "positive" event as my default start position with my last post.

With a negative event, it is a whole different ball game.  I do recall now learning from a previous start up I was involved with that if there was a liquidity/restructuring event, despite the fact that I had shares in the company, I could pretty much count on getting nada ...due to others having preferred shares, and a lot more of them,  as compared to my common shares.

Therein lies the rub. When things are going well, it's natural for "investors" to trust and try to lend a hand, believing in the future. It's when things go wrong that it gets ugly. Joe's right in that it's not uncommon for equity holders to get wiped out, but I'd also add, it's not unusual for equity investors to provide extra help if they trust the folks in charge, particularly when the investment carries a lot of social capital along with it.

It's pretty easy for me to say what I'd do if I ended up in charge, but that's why I'll never end up in charge...
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #481 on: March 09, 2012, 06:50:49 PM »
A possible solution that involves risk is for the displaced members to move over to Dismal River.  They will soon have two awesome courses.  The risk is that by moving to Dismal River, Ballyneal 2.0 will flame out into bankruptcy and then they are in position to buy the club at an even better discount than Curlander achieved.  If Ballyneal succeeds without them then they will have lost a second time on a Doak masterpiece course.  There are a few courses in SoCal that are finally doing well on their 3rd incarnation because the debt service is finally realistic.

Jim Colton

Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #482 on: March 09, 2012, 07:19:55 PM »
A possible solution that involves risk is for the displaced members to move over to Dismal River.  They will soon have two awesome courses.  The risk is that by moving to Dismal River, Ballyneal 2.0 will flame out into bankruptcy and then they are in position to buy the club at an even better discount than Curlander achieved.  If Ballyneal succeeds without them then they will have lost a second time on a Doak masterpiece course.  There are a few courses in SoCal that are finally doing well on their 3rd incarnation because the debt service is finally realistic.

Chris, is that you? :)

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #483 on: March 09, 2012, 08:02:43 PM »
Nope.  I've been driving all day from Dismal back to Jackson Hole.  Isn't the worst idea I've ever heard. ;D

I'm avoiding this thread like the plague but do hope for the best for all involved at Ballyneal and will always do what I can to help.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #484 on: March 09, 2012, 08:14:36 PM »
??
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 08:30:55 PM by Tiger_Bernhardt »

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #485 on: March 09, 2012, 08:19:32 PM »
...
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 08:34:02 PM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #486 on: March 09, 2012, 08:27:42 PM »
---
« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 05:24:11 PM by Tim Martin »

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #487 on: March 09, 2012, 08:30:08 PM »
Tim I will gladly delete it.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #488 on: March 09, 2012, 08:49:56 PM »
Tim I will gladly delete it.

Thank you Tiger.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #489 on: March 10, 2012, 10:41:53 AM »
.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 11:24:31 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #490 on: March 10, 2012, 10:47:05 AM »
I'm. Wondering how many People would change their tune if they had over heard Ronnie say that he might not be the second Owner but its third?

Ronnie is RO'N?
"We finally beat Medicare. "

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #491 on: March 11, 2012, 03:38:53 PM »
Who is "Sarge?"
H.P.S.

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #492 on: March 14, 2012, 07:52:58 PM »
Article from the local Holyoke paper:

http://www.holyokeenterprise.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5014:ballyneal-foreclosure-sale-complete&catid=63:featured-articles


No reported changes on the golf operations:

-- "Golf course will essentially operate the same, according to Matt Payne, head golf professional and general manager."

-- "Payne said Curlander plans to operate Ballyneal as a private destination walking-only golf club, utilizing a caddie program."

-- "The first order of business will be to get members. Payne said they plan to reach out to previous members of the old Ballyneal Golf & Hunt Club to invite them back to membership in the new Ballyneal. From there, they will try to find new members, as well."

-- "In the past, Ballyneal opened for the season around the middle of May or beginning of June, and Payne anticipates that will be the timeline for the 2012 season as well."



But there's good news for neighboring pheasants as the hunt club will cease operations.

"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Tony Weiler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #493 on: March 15, 2012, 03:32:00 PM »
A possible solution that involves risk is for the displaced members to move over to Dismal River.  They will soon have two awesome courses.  The risk is that by moving to Dismal River, Ballyneal 2.0 will flame out into bankruptcy and then they are in position to buy the club at an even better discount than Curlander achieved.  If Ballyneal succeeds without them then they will have lost a second time on a Doak masterpiece course.  There are a few courses in SoCal that are finally doing well on their 3rd incarnation because the debt service is finally realistic.

Chris, is that you? :)

Classic, Jim.  Classic.  Wishing you and all those involved with BN the best.  This thread has me seriously rethinking some recent "investments." 

Jim Colton

Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #494 on: March 17, 2012, 08:46:04 PM »
"[ballyneal] members think Tom is God"

Some interesting tidbits here. Limited cart play?

http://www.coloradoavidgolfer.com/news-and-press/ballyneal-s-fresh-start.aspx

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #495 on: March 17, 2012, 08:56:02 PM »
"[ballyneal] members think Tom is God"

Some interesting tidbits here. Limited cart play?

http://www.coloradoavidgolfer.com/news-and-press/ballyneal-s-fresh-start.aspx

Sounds good at least in the short term. Is limited cart play a non starter for some of the prior members that they are looking to bring back on board?

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #496 on: March 17, 2012, 09:25:05 PM »
Another 9 by Tom?!
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Keith OHalloran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #497 on: March 17, 2012, 09:32:14 PM »
JC Jones had told me he was interested in joining based on the new financial offerings. I wasn't sure if it would come to fruition, but it is good to see this happen!

Brian Potash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #498 on: March 17, 2012, 09:35:46 PM »
I am a member of Ballyneal and just committed for 2012.  I joined in 2011, so you can do the math.  I hate taking carts.  I think it is a great idea to offer limited cart use.

They need new members, right?  No need to significantly limit your potential demographic.

The last 48 hours have honestly been the first time I have started to feel good about things.

Hopefully momentum is starting to shift.

Brian

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #499 on: March 17, 2012, 09:36:48 PM »
JC Jones had told me he was interested in joining based on the new financial offerings. I wasn't sure if it would come to fruition, but it is good to see this happen!

Friends don't let friends drink and post on GCA.com

Happy St Paddy's day your Irish bastard.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.