Ballyneal in foreclosure

[Tony Weiler]

I hope for BN it works out, I loved the place.  The current state of Dismal River following what appears to be a very similar situation, seems to be very favorable.  Here is hoping the same for BN. 

Dismal never went through foreclosure. I'm sorry for everyone who is suffering though this trying event but feel I should recognize those who protected my equity during difficult times.

John, never meant to provide misinformation, so thanks for clarifying.  TW

[Jud_T]

Let's assume for the sake of argument, that the debt-holder isn't that sophisticated and doesn't know that much about golf club economics.  Yet they check into this site and get the impression that they are about to become the prized owner of the piece of dirt that holds the earth together.  Moreoever, there are wannanbe Big-Arse Petes posting here that  are apparently willing and able to step in and pay top dollar for the greatest golf course in the world.  Isn't it plausible that they might assume the best tactic is to sit around and do nothing, knowing that Jim Dandy will come to the rescue and pay top dollar?  In that scenario, what happens to the golf course in the meantime?

I think everyones need to take a morning sip of shut-the-hell-up.  There's a big difference between the economic value and intrinsic value of Ballyneal.



Bogey,

Couple of points:

1.  Pretty much everyone here is rooting for BN to come out of this as a stronger club.

2.  I think what Tom was hoping was that folks wouldn't air out actual facts and figures of any potential negotiations or personnel issues until they are in the public domain.

3.  If one can't make the interest payments, one has to sell.  If one can comfortably make those payments and wants to be unrealistic and stubborn, I don't think a couple of internet yahoos will sway them much one way or the other.

[George Pazin]

I think everyone needs to take a morning sip of shut-the-hell-up.

I'm tempted to make a tagline change...

Best of luck to all parties involved.

[PThomas]

Foreclosure is a matter of public record.  Respect (my take from some on here is do not discuss in public) is not an issue here, or is the sort of thing that its okay to talk about in hushed tones while drinking scotch and smoking a cigar?  Honestly, folks on this site do get carried away at times.

Ciao

I think everyones need to take a morning sip of shut-the-hell-up.  There's a big difference between the economic value and intrinsic value of Ballyneal.

Bogey

so much for people not talking about it per Tom's request

[Jim Nugent]

From time to time people on GCA have talked about opening up a "GCA National" golf club.  Any possibilities here?   

[Sean_A]

Foreclosure is a matter of public record.  Respect (my take from some on here is do not discuss in public) is not an issue here, or is the sort of thing that its okay to talk about in hushed tones while drinking scotch and smoking a cigar?  Honestly, folks on this site do get carried away at times.

Ciao

Agreed.  All this talk of "respect," etc. is ridiculous.  It isn't like anybody died.  

Why does Ballyneal "deserve" any different treatment around here than any of the other courses that have had financial issues that we've discussed.  Hell, Mike Whitaker posted Musgrove Mill's operating costs a while ago and nobody said boo to him.

It is sad to see Ballyneal struggling but lets keep a little bit of perspective here.

I know zero about the Ballyneal situation.  Zero.  But I do know how business negotiations work.  Let's assume for the sake of argument, that the debt-holder isn't that sophisticated and doesn't know that much about golf club economics.  Yet they check into this site and get the impression that they are about to become the prized owner of the piece of dirt that holds the earth together.  Moreoever, there are wannanbe Big-Arse Petes posting here that  are apparently willing and able to step in and pay top dollar for the greatest golf course in the world.  Isn't it plausible that they might assume the best tactic is to sit around and do nothing, knowing that Jim Dandy will come to the rescue and pay top dollar?  In that scenario, what happens to the golf course in the meantime?

I think everyones need to take a morning sip of shut-the-hell-up.  There's a big difference between the economic value and intrinsic value of Ballyneal.

If Ran can delete the Penn State thread, I don't know why he won't delete this one.  

Ran, pull the trigger.

Bogey

Bogey

Relax.  If would be buyers for Ballyneal pay attention to what people on this site say or if they think they have learned anything valuable from tnhis thread, then lord help us all.  Don't get so uptight over pubic domain info.  In fact, what info has been spilled other than Ballyneal is in foreclosure? 

Ciao

[JC Jones]

Foreclosure is a matter of public record.  Respect (my take from some on here is do not discuss in public) is not an issue here, or is the sort of thing that its okay to talk about in hushed tones while drinking scotch and smoking a cigar?  Honestly, folks on this site do get carried away at times.

Ciao

Agreed.  All this talk of "respect," etc. is ridiculous.  It isn't like anybody died.  

Why does Ballyneal "deserve" any different treatment around here than any of the other courses that have had financial issues that we've discussed.  Hell, Mike Whitaker posted Musgrove Mill's operating costs a while ago and nobody said boo to him.

It is sad to see Ballyneal struggling but lets keep a little bit of perspective here.

I know zero about the Ballyneal situation.  Zero.  But I do know how business negotiations work.  Let's assume for the sake of argument, that the debt-holder isn't that sophisticated and doesn't know that much about golf club economics.  Yet they check into this site and get the impression that they are about to become the prized owner of the piece of dirt that holds the earth together.  Moreoever, there are wannanbe Big-Arse Petes posting here that  are apparently willing and able to step in and pay top dollar for the greatest golf course in the world.  Isn't it plausible that they might assume the best tactic is to sit around and do nothing, knowing that Jim Dandy will come to the rescue and pay top dollar?  In that scenario, what happens to the golf course in the meantime?

I think everyones need to take a morning sip of shut-the-hell-up.  There's a big difference between the economic value and intrinsic value of Ballyneal.

If Ran can delete the Penn State thread, I don't know why he won't delete this one.  

Ran, pull the trigger.

Bogey

1.  If you're going to quote me, at least address my questions.
2.  Why the indignant rants when discussing the Ballyneal business model/failings and not when we discuss other courses?
3.  Did you include yourself in "everyone"? 

[Kalen Braley]

This club will make it but no doubt go through some hard times along the road.

I will offer a silent prayer that "The Donald" stays far far away. My heart goes out to the member, but most of all the staff, keep your heads up.

Why ?

He might be the best thing that could happen to Ballyneal, except, no banks appear to be involved.

He runs a great operation, appreciates great golf courses and has the resources to continue operations.

And, I think he's smart enough to leave it as it is.

C'mon Pat,

You know he would do something like this on a hole like 12...  

P.S.  Yes I'm well aware my Photoshop skills are woefully inadequate! 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bogey,

I believe it may have been Brad Klein who said words to the effect that to the outside world, what's said on this site is mostly irrelevant.

I can't speak for Ran, but it's been my limited experience that he doesn't Prohibit relevant golf issues from being discussed.

Clubs across the country are experiencing great difficulties, and I suspect that more will close or consolidate.

I have heard nothing but great things about Ballyneal.  One of my regrets is that I've yet to play it.
Obviously, everyone wants to see it remain a viable, if not vibrant, golf Course.

A related question is:  how are the other "destination" courses faring ?

Might a "solution" or method for securing an infusion of cash be, to offer National memberships, at lower fees, based on residence distance from Holyoke, CO ?

Ie,  would Mike Sweeney, Steve Lapper, TEPaul and others pay $ 500 to $ 1,000 per year to be National members outside of a 1,000 or 1,500 mile radius ?  Get 500 or 1,000 of them and that's a nice income stream.  Maybe $ 1,000 to $ 2,500 per year for those between 500 miles and 1,000 miles.  In other words, tier the National membership based on milage, and provide National members with reduced privileges, no equity, and availability based on scheduling.

Allow these members to send unaccompanied guests, at a premium.

Part of the appeal of destination clubs is their remoteness, but that has a negative impact on utilization.

In other words, adopt a Pine Valley like operation.

PV has members from all over the world, but those members don't play every weekend, thus you can swell your member ranks with golfers who live a great distance from the club because they RARELY use the club, and usually have to pre-schedule their visits with the club.

They've been very successful in running their club and destination clubs should take note of how they do things.

[Mike Hendren]

I'm compelled to ask:  Exactly how many financially distressed golf clubs have been rescued by flippant scenarios tossed out by the members of this website?  As a syndicate we're an abject failure.  

I'm also compelled to ask:  If you held the mortgage on Ballyneal, would you be monitoring this thread with interest?

[Mike Nuzzo]

I believe it may have been Brad Klein who said words to the effect that to the outside world, what's said on this site is mostly irrelevant.

I think Tom Doak directly disagrees with that statement - based on his comments on the getting started thread.
And this is where Don Mahaffey and I first met, including many other business relationships.

this site may not impact "golf", but it does effect golf architecture as a business and an art
Cheers

[Adam Clayman]

2.  Why the indignant rants when discussing the Ballyneal business model/failings and not when we discuss other courses?

I can't answer why, definitively, however, two reasons come to mind as possibilities.

Ballyneal was kind of a GCA.com baby. Tom, leaked the first site visit before he even went. ('03?) And when he returned he posted a picture of the raw land. The randomness of the rolls combined with a sandy look, tugged at the souls of us gca.com veteran geek-o-philes.

The other reason is a humanistic one. It's likely poor form to discuss the financials of any private course, unless you have a capital interest. Using past poor form to justify current ones, ain't fly. Dig?

[JC Jones]

Mr. Clayman,

I think your first reason is more likely correct than your second reason. 

Bogey,

No.  As Tom Doak has made abundantly clear, we don't know anything about the golf business and people don't really care what we have to say.

[John Shimp]

Pat Mucci's idea on a National program makes sense to me.  A place like Ballyneal needs a model where 2 visits a year seem like enough for a certain group of members.  Giant initiation fees tend to get amortized into the costs so keeping those reasonable helps people take the leap.  $1000-2000/year dues feels to me like what a 2x/year member from far away could handle for a young club like Ballyneal.

[John Kavanaugh]

Per Colton's blog.

Here's hoping it stays open for a long time.

I can not find this article on Colton's blog, of course I can only hold my breath so long.

[Chris_Hufnagel]

It is Part IV (Trump Colorado) of his "Dream Golf Weekend: Bandon" article...

[Dan Kelly]

I think everyone needs to take a morning sip of shut-the-hell-up.

I'm tempted to make a tagline change...

[Sven Nilsen]

Per Colton's blog.

Here's hoping it stays open for a long time.

I can not find this article on Colton's blog, of course I can only hold my breath so long.

John:

Its in part 4 of his Bandon trip write-up.  Also referenced in part 6.

[Jim Colton]

Per Colton's blog.

Here's hoping it stays open for a long time.

I can not find this article on Colton's blog, of course I can only hold my breath so long.

That's a ringing endorsement!

[PThomas]

I think everyone needs to take a morning sip of shut-the-hell-up.

I'm tempted to make a tagline change...

classic!

[Dan Byrnes]

I don't feel strongly one way or another on if it is appropriate forum to discuss a clubs troubles, I am fine with it and also see the other point of view.  However as a past President of a club that went through a debt problem, the more awareness the issue has the greater the opportunities are to salvage it.  I had limited possabilities at my club but once the news got out the options dramatically increased. Some good some bad.  Also provided the opportunity for the folks in charge to combine interested folks. The majority of golfers and people with money that love golf and could be in a position to help don't read this site.

So IMHO the best way to see this saved is to have a lot of possible saviors.  Let's face it while I haven't played there I have read the reviews and there are only two options here.  Return the land to farm land which isn't likely a good option or maintain it as a premium club.  If you make it a poor condition muni it just becomes farmland again as its too remote.  When saddled with those two choices the debt holders are likely to realize they can lose virtually their entire investment and farm the land or take a haircut in term or loan balance and likely both and keep the club going and hope it survives and it's greatness eventually provides a return.

The only reason I can see to hush hush things is if someone already has a inside track on a sweetheart deal and will be a great caretaker for the place.

Dan

[Michael George]

Kalen:

Love the photoshop.  Ballyneal would be completely out of character for Trump based on his current model, but I did laugh out loud when I saw your artwork.

However, it still is not better then the post that NGLA and Shinnecock were allowing public play during the hurricane.  That was really funny stuff.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen:

Love the photoshop.  Ballyneal would be completely out of character for Trump based on his current model, but I did laugh out loud when I saw your artwork.

However, it still is not better then the post that NGLA and Shinnecock were allowing public play during the hurricane.  That was really funny stuff.

I was kind of hoping to inspire one of the few guys on this site who are actually good with Photoshop to put a ginormous waterfall behind the 9th green...and make it look like its actually there! 

[Kalen Braley]

I think Pat really hit the nail on the head.

While an actual membership at Ballyneal would be out of my range, I could be easily swayed to pay $1k per year for a National one and head out there a couple times per year.

[John Kavanaugh]

I think Pat really hit the nail on the head.

While an actual membership at Ballyneal would be out of my range, I could be easily swayed to pay $1k per year for a National one and head out there a couple times per year.

So if Pebble were private you would go twice a year.