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Mike Sweeney

Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2011, 06:00:55 AM »

I hope that no one here tries to sort out things out publicly,

Tom,

I have never been to Ballyneal but obviously I know a few members. You must have skipped the Logic 101 class at Cornell, but if you the architect on the project does not want things sorted out publicly on Ballyneal, it might be best if YOU NOT RESPOND PUBLICLY.  ::)

Mike Sweeney
Friend of Ballyneal

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2011, 07:45:23 AM »
Definitely a bummer.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2011, 08:35:15 AM »
Bummer.  Can't imagine that a course this good will not get a second lease on life though.  Hell I'd buy it if I had the cash.  And a shout out to Matt who went out of his way to make our stay enjoyable.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 08:38:13 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2011, 08:48:26 AM »

I hope that no one here tries to sort out things out publicly,

Tom,

I have never been to Ballyneal but obviously I know a few members. You must have skipped the Logic 101 class at Cornell, but if you the architect on the project does not want things sorted out publicly on Ballyneal, it might be best if YOU NOT RESPOND PUBLICLY.  ::)

Mike Sweeney
Friend of Ballyneal

methinks if Tom didnt ask people not to discuss, some probably would do so
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2011, 09:04:29 AM »
Any details?  How much are they indebted?  Maybe the bank will take a haircut.  Not that it is all comparable but my club went under a year ago and we owed almost 4 million.  I negotiated the bank, Bank of America, down to 1 million but the membership balked at buying it, I didnt see enough upside and did not have enough working capital as well as money for necesssary improvements on top of the purchase price to buy it myself.  Maybe a mistake long term but didn't want to be strapped in this economy and the horrible weather this year would have made it rough first year.  They eventually sold the mortgage to some local investors for 1.565 million.

Dan

What lesson can be gleened from this?  That club members looked at what they had and wouldn't pony up $1 Million to own it?  It would be interesting to know the replacement cost of the club and how horrific the financials must have been.

And what a turnabout from the days not so long ago when the management companies were putting REITS together to buy packages of golf courses.  I am aware of a wonderful local course which gets around 40,000 annual rounds, cost upwards $8 Million to build and can be had for around $3.  2010, a good year operationally, the management company squeezed $100,000 NOI (including depreciation, before debt service) and has no interest in owning the property.

I understand Tom Doak's desire to keep the details to a minimum.  Bad information, rumors, hurt feelings and sensitivities help no one.  However, knowing the debt and what might be required to acquire the club after foreclosure might be helpful in getting a white knight interested (I come from the school that very wide exposure to potential investors is much better for most stakeholders than hush-hush backroom deals).  Who knows, if the course is as good as everyone here says it is, maybe the site can birth the new ownership group (something about putting money where the mouth is).    

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2011, 09:09:58 AM »
Deleted.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 03:47:28 AM by Michael George »
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2011, 09:13:48 AM »
Deleted.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 05:53:27 PM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2011, 09:14:58 AM »
How is the pheasant hunting in the area?  Is the hunting angle viable?  Can it add value, specially during the slow winter months?

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2011, 09:16:37 AM »

I hope that no one here tries to sort out things out publicly, since there maybe as many interested parties as there are members.  All of the debt is privately held, but that may make it harder to sort out, and not easier.  A bank would have an immediate interest to sell at whatever price it could get, but the various factions here all have their own ideas on what to do.




Tom -

If the debt is privately held as you say, then the deal for the new owners is likely already done (or in place waiting for the paperwork).
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 08:48:40 AM by Mike Benham »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2011, 09:17:51 AM »
Deleted.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 06:02:53 PM by Michael George »
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2011, 09:21:34 AM »
Deleted.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 05:54:02 PM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Ian Dalzell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2011, 09:35:51 AM »
Sad news indeed.  A state of the industry I am afraid.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 04:06:02 PM by Ian Dalzell »

Steve Salmen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2011, 09:35:55 AM »
If Ballyneal is in foreclosure, there are probably public records with a lot of information.  That is what interested parties should be sorting out, not speculating.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2011, 09:48:52 AM »
As a member or potential member, I would prefer a club with the Honors Course model.


"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Ron Farris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2011, 10:15:41 AM »
Excuse me as I go clean-up the vomit! 

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2011, 10:30:06 AM »
Excuse me as I go clean-up the vomit! 

what do you mean?
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Dan Byrnes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2011, 10:41:26 AM »
Any details?  How much are they indebted?  Maybe the bank will take a haircut.  Not that it is all comparable but my club went under a year ago and we owed almost 4 million.  I negotiated the bank, Bank of America, down to 1 million but the membership balked at buying it, I didnt see enough upside and did not have enough working capital as well as money for necesssary improvements on top of the purchase price to buy it myself.  Maybe a mistake long term but didn't want to be strapped in this economy and the horrible weather this year would have made it rough first year.  They eventually sold the mortgage to some local investors for 1.565 million.

Dan

What lesson can be gleened from this?  That club members looked at what they had and wouldn't pony up $1 Million to own it?  It would be interesting to know the replacement cost of the club and how horrific the financials must have been.

And what a turnabout from the days not so long ago when the management companies were putting REITS together to buy packages of golf courses.  I am aware of a wonderful local course which gets around 40,000 annual rounds, cost upwards $8 Million to build and can be had for around $3.  2010, a good year operationally, the management company squeezed $100,000 NOI (including depreciation, before debt service) and has no interest in Downing the property.

I understand Tom Doak's desire to keep the details to a minimum.  Bad information, rumors, hurt feelings and sensitivities help no one.  However, knowing the debt and what might be required to acquire the club after foreclosure might be helpful in getting a white knight interested (I come from the school that very wide exposure to potential investors is much better for most stakeholders than hush-hush backroom deals).  Who knows, if the course is as good as everyone here says it is, maybe the site can birth the new ownership group (something about putting money where the mouth is).    

The land is in a desirable residential area but the entire 260 acres isn't buildable.  The club was just mismanaged over the years to a point where I as President tookover when foreclosure was looming.  I got the bank to give me a year to sort it out and felt the 1,000,000 price was more than fair.  Just didn't couldn't get a widespread commitment from the membership.  Several groups of members were given the opportunity before the mortgage sale but all tried to get an even better deal and as the bank got pissed they raised the price &100k every two weeks.  That ruffled the feathers of any perspective buyers and it became a mess and the membership fell apart.

I got membership form 200 to 250 and without debt service we were in the black but the debt service on 4 million was just to big for the revenue which was 2 millionish. The club had a new watering system and made many other improvements on the course although the buildings were just ok.  As a member owned place with no debt I think we would have been successful as I would have been able to drop dues considerably.

I think this is just a sign that outside of metro area where there is more wealth Private golf is in trouble.

BTW for those interested the club is Normanside Country Club www.normanside.com.  I'll be happy to answer any other questions for the benefit of others of what I learned.  I remained a member at it is run a a semi private.  

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2011, 10:50:33 AM »
A bank would have an immediate interest to sell at whatever price it could get

Stick to building golf courses.

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2011, 11:01:21 AM »
Deleted.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 06:00:22 PM by Michael George »
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Ari Techner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2011, 11:01:52 AM »
Very sad to hear this.  Hopefully the new owners can keep the golf course open and hopefully they keep some of the wonderful staff like Matt on board.  

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #45 on: November 15, 2011, 11:07:27 AM »
very very sad new..please let it all be sorted..so sorry for Rupert et al..whohave tried to make this magical place what it is.
A very very special place..great course great people..great atmosphere....lets hope for the best
please keep us all in the loop Jim....about anyprogress or heaven forbid otherwise.

Brad Isaacs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #46 on: November 15, 2011, 11:28:47 AM »
Maybe TOm Doak knows information that GCA does not.  Maybe he wants to see the right thing done. 
Stick to GOlf Design?????
Comment to him is basically unfair.  I would suggest listen to him.  Ben SIms' comment is wise as well.

Thank You Tom and Ben.


Pete Balzer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #47 on: November 15, 2011, 11:41:53 AM »
what's the current membership #? what was the peak #?

Jim Colton

Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #48 on: November 15, 2011, 11:48:25 AM »
 That decision will effectively be to either take it public or keep it private.  My guess is public as the private attempt already failed. 

Michael,

  Colorado Golf, Stone Eagle and Dismal River are other courses built around the same time that had similar growing pains and seemed to come out of it stronger yet still private golf clubs. Mr. Doak had it right when he said the club failed because the amount of play could not support the debt level -- not a huge revelation in this day and age. Every business decision had to be made with this debt in mind. But the business model changes drastically when you remove the debt from the equation. A well-run, modest private club can work in Holyoke. That's what I'm hoping for and willing to support in the future.

  Jim

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #49 on: November 15, 2011, 11:57:09 AM »
Jim:

You are right.  Pete Dye is another club that has remained private.  I deleted my post re: the possibility of going public. 
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 06:07:44 PM by Michael George »
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones