Ballyneal in foreclosure

[JC Jones]

No question about it, Dave Hensley has done amazing things for that Golf course out in the Chop Hills.

Wow.  The tension is palpable when you won't refer to the course by name.

[Keith OHalloran]

Question for anyone with knowledge of how foreclosures work in Colorado. It seems that the note holder bought the property here for more than the total debt. I.e 1.7 million was owed and it went for 2. If he was the only bidder, why would he have bid so high? Could he have bid 1  dollar and held the debtor liable for the deficiency? If he could have, and decided not to, this could add to the feeling of "inside politics" among the members. I think everyone understands that an nvestment can go badly, but people don't want to feel like it was insider trading.
Of course if the local laws dictate the minimum bid at foreclosure, this is meaningless.

[PThomas]

so the people who were members before the foreclosure are no longer members?  they would have to reapply and pay another initiation fee?

[Brian Potash]

so the people who were members before the foreclosure are no longer members?  they would have to reapply and pay another initiation fee?

No, that would be outrageous.

Though the new initiation fees are only 1/5 of the old.

The bottom line is that while most if not all of the existing members (regardless of how much money they lost) would have preferred a member owned club, Curlander was never offered enough a figure that he felt like selling the club for.

Ultimately he is the one that lost the most money so it's his call.  His plan is to keep the club the same as it has always been.

There is a lot of skepticism amongst the current membership and as Tom said a lot of the original founding members who supported the club financially over the years have stated that they will not be continuing as members of Ballyneal 2.0

Time will tell........

Brian

[Craig Van Egmond]

"There is a lot of skepticism amongst the current membership and as Tom said a lot of the original founding members who supported the club financially over the years have stated that they will not be continuing as members of Ballyneal 2.0"


If the a good portion of those that supported it over the years are not going to continue and they didn't have enough members to support it in the first place, I don't see how  it's going to last going forward. 

[Brian Potash]

Craig,

Thats obviously a good point.

The plan of the new owner is that with the new initiation fees they will get enough new members over the next few years to make things work.

[Mike_Young]

I know nothing of the BN situation but I have seen enough club foreclosures lately and the basics are whoever bought it can do whatever he wishes.  He can plant corn if that is what he wanted.  BUT these guys aren't stupid.  You have one of two situations.  1.  As the noteholder you know there are no other bidders so you bid the note in at your price instead of allowing someone to take it at a much lower price on the courthouse steps.  
2. Then once it has been thru the foreclosure you have a clean slate and you can either operate it or sell it and take a partial loss on your terms rather than the foreclosure terms.  (This is what the banks usually do)
Even if the guy that had the note knows nothing of golf he has let it be known he intends to go forward or he would have already dismissed the staff.  He's probably smart enough to know he will need TD around.  My bet would be "give the guy a chance and he might turn it all around"...it's his sandbox.  And I'm sure he wants most fo the past guys playing it.  JMO

[John_Cullum]

Just what do you people mean when you talk about "members who supported the club financially"? To me it sounds like some guys who for some reason loaned the club a little bit of money, but not enough to make a difference. Curlander, on the other hand, loaned the club a ton of money, enough to keep it out of foreclosure by a bank (and probably resolve some 941 tax delinquencies and unpaid property  taxes). He was smart and took an assignment of the debt he bailed. Now he's in charge. The members who wouldn't step up to the plate with the real money it took to fix the problem will go unpaid because they made a bad loan.

The membership could have bought this club for 2M, but wouldn't. They should be grateful if they don't get kicked out.

[Mike Sweeney]

The membership could have bought this club for 2M, but wouldn't. They should be grateful if they don't get kicked out.

John,

You are simply wrong.

The membership did approach the current owner as early as last May.

When you say "They should be grateful if they don't get kicked out", that just seems silly. This is not Pine Valley or Shinnecock in the middle of 20 million people living within two hours.

As others have said, let's see what he does now, but if you need a lawyer to join a golf club in the Sand Hills, I will stick with Wild Horse. Golf Clubs are supposed to be clubs.

[John_Cullum]

John,

You are simply wrong.

The membership did approach the current owner as early as last May.

Did they approach him with $2,542,071.87? less non-incurred cost/interest?

[Mike Sweeney]

John,

You are simply wrong.

The membership did approach the current owner as early as last May.

Did they approach him with $2,542,071.87? less non-incurred cost/interest?

Without really knowing, of course not.

Who in the world would throw away $2.5 million and buy land/golf course on a property in the middle of nowhere that has been owned by the family for generations and clearly the bankruptcy is not really going to remove the family from this. They live there, it is their town and the people that work there are clearly loyal to the family.

I restate my position, this is a family feud that screwed the members. I am so happy to learn that the farm hands of Eastern Colorado have used the US legal system to wipe every penny that was placed into the club by outsiders. Perhaps developer Donald Trump of Palm Beach and NYC will feature one of the Eastern Coloradan developers on one of his TV shows. Congratulations to the new owner!

The old members wanted to be partners, not adversarial.

[John_Cullum]

The old members wanted to be partners, not adversarial.

Well, they don't get to be partners. But I am guessing they will get to keep their membership, so that aint a bad deal.

What would the members have gotten if the Bank of Colorado, the IRS, and the CO Dept of Labor had pursued their legal remedies?

[Bart Bradley]

Who in the world would throw away $2.5 million and buy land/golf course on a property in the middle of nowhere that has been owned by the family for generations and clearly the bankruptcy is not really going to remove the family from this. They live there, it is their town and the people that work there are clearly loyal to the family.



[/quote]

Is it really true that this land had been owned by the family for generations?

Bart

[Brad Isaacs]

No, not true.

[Bruce Katona]

I remember working on a project with similar issues.  We spent months working with the exiting staff, formulating & revising our bid, multiple conversation swith the Trustee in charge of the sale and submitting a bid which worked financially for all, including the exisiting memebrs (some wanted to stay, some leave).

In the end we were outbid by about $1.5 million by a single guy who wanted to keep the club operating the way it was.  He has the deep pockets to do this.  Club still exists and he still owns the place....many on here would know the facility.

[Steve Salmen]

"members who supported the club financially"? To me it sounds like some guys who for some reason loaned the club a little bit of money, but not enough to make a difference.

Do you have any idea how broad the statement in quotes could possibly be?  And then you actually draw a conclusion from it?  On top of that, you're conclusion is wrong.

[PThomas]

so the people who were members before the foreclosure are no longer members?  they would have to reapply and pay another initiation fee?

No, that would be outrageous.

Though the new initiation fees are only 1/5 of the old.

The bottom line is that while most if not all of the existing members (regardless of how much money they lost) would have preferred a member owned club, Curlander was never offered enough a figure that he felt like selling the club for.

Ultimately he is the one that lost the most money so it's his call.  His plan is to keep the club the same as it has always been.

There is a lot of skepticism amongst the current membership and as Tom said a lot of the original founding members who supported the club financially over the years have stated that they will not be continuing as members of Ballyneal 2.0

Time will tell........

Brian

thanks Brian...I obviously know nothing about this type of thing, but if i was an original member and the new owner wnated me to pay another initiation fee...well, that doesnt seem fair at all, to say the least

[John_Cullum]

"members who supported the club financially"? To me it sounds like some guys who for some reason loaned the club a little bit of money, but not enough to make a difference.

Do you have any idea how broad the statement in quotes could possibly be?  And then you actually draw a conclusion from it?  On top of that, you're conclusion is wrong.

Yes, I realize how broad it is. I asked what was meant by it. Care to explain?

[Mike Sweeney]

Who in the world would throw away $2.5 million and buy land/golf course on a property in the middle of nowhere that has been owned by the family for generations and clearly the bankruptcy is not really going to remove the family from this. They live there, it is their town and the people that work there are clearly loyal to the family.

Is it really true that this land had been owned by the family for generations?

Bart
[/quote]

From The Denver Post and the Ballyneal website:

"wrestled at the University of Northern Colorado before returning from college to run a 3,000- acre farm that has been in the family for 98 years. Looking for additional ways to make money, he started an upland game-bird hunting club."

www.ballyneal.com/app/webroot/pdf/BN_denverpost_7.23.09.pdf

[Bart Bradley]

Mike:

Is that where the golf course is?

Bart

[George Pazin]

From the Feature Interview with Jim O'Neal on this site:

2. When did your brother Rupert and you first see the property that Ballyneal now occupies?

I probably saw the land when I was four or five years old. Our family would drive from Holyoke to the neighboring town of Wray to go fishing, and we would see the “Chop Hills,” as they are known in the area. The area was known as land for grazing cattle and for having a place we called “Old Baldy,” which was a big blowout where we would go on a Sunday afternoon for a picnic. It was like going to a sandy beach without the water. A little different, but fun as a kid.

When I was in high school in the early 80′s, I was getting more and more into golf, so the thoughts of the sand hills as a golf course became stronger. I didn’t have a clue how it would come about, but I stopped a few times on the county line and would walk into the pasture looking for holes. I would watch the British Open (what I used to call it) now the Open Championship, and then wander out in the pasture to find holes that looked like those on TV.

Rupert and I really saw the land up close and personal with the thought of building a course in the fall of 2001. The owners of the land, the Brinkema’s, were nice enough to allow us to drive four-wheeled ATV’s on the land to get a good look one evening.

[Sven Nilsen]

Question for anyone with knowledge of how foreclosures work in Colorado. It seems that the note holder bought the property here for more than the total debt. I.e 1.7 million was owed and it went for 2. If he was the only bidder, why would he have bid so high? Could he have bid 1  dollar and held the debtor liable for the deficiency? If he could have, and decided not to, this could add to the feeling of "inside politics" among the members. I think everyone understands that an nvestment can go badly, but people don't want to feel like it was insider trading.
Of course if the local laws dictate the minimum bid at foreclosure, this is meaningless.

Keith:

Take another look at the amounts.  $1.7m in principal, plus $793k in unpaid interest.  The rest represents the basic costs for going through a foreclosure.

[Bart Bradley]

From the Feature Interview with Jim O'Neal on this site:

2. When did your brother Rupert and you first see the property that Ballyneal now occupies?

I probably saw the land when I was four or five years old. Our family would drive from Holyoke to the neighboring town of Wray to go fishing, and we would see the “Chop Hills,” as they are known in the area. The area was known as land for grazing cattle and for having a place we called “Old Baldy,” which was a big blowout where we would go on a Sunday afternoon for a picnic. It was like going to a sandy beach without the water. A little different, but fun as a kid.

When I was in high school in the early 80′s, I was getting more and more into golf, so the thoughts of the sand hills as a golf course became stronger. I didn’t have a clue how it would come about, but I stopped a few times on the county line and would walk into the pasture looking for holes. I would watch the British Open (what I used to call it) now the Open Championship, and then wander out in the pasture to find holes that looked like those on TV.

Rupert and I really saw the land up close and personal with the thought of building a course in the fall of 2001. The owners of the land, the Brinkema’s, were nice enough to allow us to drive four-wheeled ATV’s on the land to get a good look one evening.

Thanks George...so Mike, not family land.  Land bought to develop a golf course.  Does this change your opinion?

Bart

[Keith OHalloran]

Thanks Sven,
I guess my question really was, why would the only bidder bid so close to the debt amount?

[Sven Nilsen]

Thanks Sven,
I guess my question really was, why would the only bidder bid so close to the debt amount?

Think of this in terms of clearing title.  In order to do so, the existing debt has to be wiped out, including any costs incidental to the foreclosure process.  Normally, the first bid in any auction process is made by the existing lien holder for the exact amount that is needed to do so.  (Sometimes, the first bid is set at an amount equal to the appraised value of the property.)  If anyone wants to bid over that amount, they are free to do so.  Going forward, the new owner (the old lien-holder) holds the property free and clear of any attachments, and can claim clean title if they are looking to sell it to a third party.

These situations get interesting when the amount of debt remaining unpaid is very low as compared to the value of the property.  Or if it is a property that the bank/lien holder does not necessarily want to own.  There's a gigantic business out there right now for REO (Real Estate Owned) properties.  With the number of foreclosures that have taken place over the last few years, the service industry for maintaining/protecting REO properties has boomed.