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Jay Flemma

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Cherry Valley - Emmet? Travis? Jones? Reef or no?
« on: November 11, 2011, 08:38:00 PM »
Guys, how many of you have played Cherry valley and what can you tell me about what's Emmet's, what's Travis's and what's Jones's?  I've had a nice talk with Stephen Kay, Phil Young and Mark Chalfant, and I've read some...but I haven't seen any pix and what6 I've read and heard tebds to conflict...what do we know about CV?

Also 13 - Reef hole or no?
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cherry Valley - Emmet? Travis? Jones? Reef or no?
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2011, 11:05:50 AM »
It can't possibly be that NONE of us has played Cherry Valley... ;D
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cherry Valley - Emmet? Travis? Jones? Reef or no?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2011, 02:41:13 PM »
I have played there several times a week for 11 years.  Greens 1-3,6-9,11-16, and 18 are Emmet.  Greens 4;5,10,17 are RTJ.  There is some speculation that Tilly did 14, but would have to see something substantiated. 13 is not a Reef hole, but a green in need of restoration--it originally went all the way up to the front cross bunkers and was a 70 yard green.  They have done a pretty good job of eliminating the hundredss of trees Kay had them add in the 80's.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cherry Valley - Emmet? Travis? Jones? Reef or no?
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2011, 04:04:12 PM »
Thanks for the info. However, I don't believe for one second that Kay would have had them add trees.  I'm told by the actually removing them was part of Stephen's master plan all along.

Stephen actually wants me to say something - and this is a quote from him - "I only added 50 flowering trees in the 80s they wanted.  We are now taking most of those down, like I wanted to in the first place.  I took down 300-400 trees total...the only other trees I recommended they plant were 8 trees along a property fence where balls would slice into a road."

By the way, I'm glad to run into you for another reason.  Do you remember on the Forsgate thread how you accused Stephen of not removing enough trees?  Well I found out the real story - the city was going to charge Forsgate $5,000 per tree that they removed over a limit of 10 per year, and you have to get a permit for those.  Stephen and the club want to remove all the trees that are there, but they are handcuffed by an ordinance and some bureaucracy that won;t let them.

Stephen said, "If I had my way I'd cut down another 3-400 trees at Forsgate, but the town won't let us."
« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 04:06:33 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cherry Valley - Emmet? Travis? Jones? Reef or no?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2011, 04:13:10 PM »
Philip Young once told me what a Reef hole is.   Please refresh my memory.   I seem to recall it's akin to a bottle hole, tighter as you get closer to the green.   

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cherry Valley - Emmet? Travis? Jones? Reef or no?
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2011, 08:48:14 PM »
Jay,  you are a wonderful Kay apologist.  He has never had anything to do with the removal of trees at Cherry Valley.  The removal of trees was a direct result of the Doak tree removal across the train tracks at GCGC because 25% of the GCGC membership belongs to CVC.  As for the resoration of the 15th, 16th, and expansion of the 17th green,  Chris Capporrici, the superintendent was soley responsible with the blessing of the greens committee.  I was occassionally involved in greens committee meetings, but cannot claim any credit for any results.  Those who have played CVC, will attest that Capporrici is responsible for GCGC trying to firm itself up to the standard he has set--he trained under Frairs Head's Bill Jones when he was at the Creek, and  CVC still has the firmest, fastest, and smoothest greens in Garden City. 
As for the Kay tree planting, the organic matter mound betweeen 10 and 18 that he built, was once filled with a proliferation of pines that he built to create separation between the holes, but led to a few painful beanings because balls could not be picked up until they had cleared the trees

Ed Homsey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cherry Valley - Emmet? Travis? Jones? Reef or no?
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2011, 09:02:33 PM »
re Original question about which golf course designers were involved at Cherry Valley, I am looking at a September 3, 1907 NY Times article headlined:  "W.J. Travis Opens New Public Links".  It was an announcement of the opening of the "public links of the Salisbury Golf Club" and went on to mention, "There was a big turnout of golfers to try out the new course which Devereaux Emmet has laid out".  Travis hit the first ball.

As many of you would know, Travis is credited with the course in a few sources, e.g. The Architects of Golf,Glolf Clubs of the MGA.  Based on a conversation with a gentleman who is highly respected as a historian of the Garden City courses, combined with the NY Times item, the Travis Society dropped CVC from it's Travis list.

Ed

www.travissociety.com

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cherry Valley - Emmet? Travis? Jones? Reef or no?
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2011, 04:14:43 PM »
Never had heard of Travis being accredited with Cherry Valley's design.  However, I have no doubt that Travis might have made suggestions about improving the course which were implemented.   

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cherry Valley - Emmet? Travis? Jones? Reef or no?
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2011, 04:48:07 PM »
Ed and Robert, I wonder if the confusion comes from the reading of the article-in other words, Travis opened the course.  'Opened' because he hit the first ball, a ceremonial opening, being a prominent player of local acclaim.  I would imagine he probably wrote about it through some media at some point in time.  It's probably just human error at some point along the line, extrapolating a connection of Travis to the design of the course.  I imagine, if Emmett hit the first ball, we wouldn't have this confusion.   

Robert, you probably are correct there may have been improvements made at some point from suggestions from Travis. 

I hope to see CVC (and GC Country) some day-I pass by it all the time going to and from my grandparents' house in Mineola.  Kyle and I took a look through the fence en route from BSP some years back as well, can't recall if it was before or after Umberto's of New Hyde Park. 
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cherry Valley - Emmet? Travis? Jones? Reef or no?
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2011, 05:25:52 PM »
Philip Young once told me what a Reef hole is.   Please refresh my memory.   I seem to recall it's akin to a bottle hole, tighter as you get closer to the green.   

Here's Tillie's own description

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1926/ag303r.pdf
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Kyle Harris

Re: Cherry Valley - Emmet? Travis? Jones? Reef or no?
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2011, 05:32:05 PM »
"Okay class, today do you want to talk about bunker construction or strategic tree planting? Fuck it, we're doing bunkers... Strategic tree planting? Cut the fucking thing down."

-Stephen Kay, 2009

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cherry Valley - Emmet? Travis? Jones? Reef or no?
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2011, 08:36:47 PM »
Right on, Kyle.  You know the truth.

Anyway - regarding CVC, to paraphrase Dennis Green - it is what we thought it was.

I've never seen a course where pretty much every opinion pretty much agreed with everybody else's opinion!  What everybody said turned out to be right.  There's a goodly amount of Emmet left there - especially in the green surrounds.  There's a smattering of really fun holes:  6-9 for example, and 11.  They had good green contours, (They were doing some work, and they had just aerated so sadly, while I could see all these nice green contours, you just couldn't putt them.)

But somehow the whole doesn't feel greater than the sum of the parts, possibly because the parts differ so sharply.  It's not that some of the things Jones did were objectionable, they just didn't seem to blend with Emmet.  Fr example the second green has emmet surrounds and shaping, but a sharply two-tired green that looks like quintessential Jones, Sr.  17 doesn't fit with the course, even though it's a gpod hole.  And the routing is a jumble - I needed a sherpa, a map, and an archaeologist to find my way.  There's some long walks between tees, and you turn every which way at once, at one point even backtracking the way you came.  I never would have guessed that one!

It's a nice place, and with lots of good solid holes, but somehow nothing really really particularly memorable.  I remember every hole at St. George's perfectly, but some holes at CVC are mundane enough to sort of blend with others. (Four did nothing for me and while I like 15, I hate the blind pond, which rears its ugly head TWICE, once at 14 and again at 15.  Still, there was a lot of Emmet influence and shaping at the greensites.  I hope to see it again when the greens are rolling nice and true, and when it's done with the restoration work.  That'll be more fair to doing a review.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cherry Valley - Emmet? Travis? Jones? Reef or no?
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2011, 09:30:16 PM »
Here's some pix of 13



Not a great angle...



...but you can see the room  beyond the hazard.

I'll post more from the tee tomorrow.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner