[Scott Stearns]

they may look alike, but they dont play that way. 

I think what the tour players actually do is more instructive than what they say.

I stood on #16 on a Tuesday during tournament week and watched the players play shots to that green, trying to figure it out.  guys hit several shots apiece, and there was no crowd so i could hear their dialogue with the caddies, their reactions, and see what they hit.

the guys played 5 and 6 iron straight at the flag, or in one case hit a big hook. they were jumping on it trying to get as much spin as they could, judging by the dialogue. 

I''ve also watched tour players play AN's #16.  to get to the back left they dead-hands an 8 iron and try to feed it along the ridge in the green. 

these are not similar holes to me...

[Will Lozier]

they may look alike, but they dont play that way.  

I think what the tour players actually do is more instructive than what they say.

I stood on #16 on a Tuesday during tournament week and watched the players play shots to that green, trying to figure it out.  guys hit several shots apiece, and there was no crowd so i could hear their dialogue with the caddies, their reactions, and see what they hit.

the guys played 5 and 6 iron straight at the flag, or in one case hit a big hook. they were jumping on it trying to get as much spin as they could, judging by the dialogue.  

I''ve also watched tour players play AN's #16.  to get to the back left they dead-hands an 8 iron and try to feed it along the ridge in the green.  

these are not similar holes to me...

Rob,

I take your points...but then again, I never said they play alike (now) - the yardages are different and MV's green appears to be rather benign. I certainly concede those points.  However, with Jack being such a proponent of reigning in the golf ball, I would still argue that this is his version of ANGC's 16 (minus the fantastic green contours) in terms of angles and yardage as it used to play...remember what club he almost holed out with '86?  Yup, 5-iron.  

I too have seen 50 or so shots played on ANGC - I have not seen shots played to the new MV hole - and, other than the front left bunker not present to bail out an aggressive shot hit short to a left pin, the aesthetics are nearly identical.  I'd love to hear others chime in on the theory that Jack's (and MVGC's) connection to Augusta possibly led to this particular redesign.  I won't pretend to know what he was thinking, but come on!

Cheers

[Bill McKinley]

#17 Par 4. 478 Yards

As has been said in this thread, there have been changes made to this hole.  There has been a bunker reconfiguration and a tee added.  It used to play in the 440 range, now it's the longest par 4 on the golf course.  It certainly plays long too as the tee is not elevated and the green is perched up a bit with a big slope in front and creek at the base of the hill.  It is probably one of the more difficult greens to hit in regulation due to the length of shot that you'll be playing in and the fact that it is all carry.

From the new back tee.  A tight looking tee shot, if you hit it too far right, you'll be blocked out by trees and if you find one of the left bunkers, you'll be laying up


From the approach.  You can't see the creek from here, but you can see that you'll need to carry it on the green for your 2nd.


From about 40 yards short of the green.  Nice green complex.  No easy par.  This hole ranked #3 in difficulty in 2010 & 2011

[JLahrman]

Can anyone compare and contrast the current 17th with the former version, which had the gigantic bunker up the left side of the fairway and (I believe) did not have a water hazard short of the green?

[Bill McKinley]

#18 Par 4. 444 Yards.

The hole hole at MVGC has been the most difficult hole during the Memorial Tournament over the past 25 years.  It is a majestic sweeper to the right with a slightly elevated tee down to the fairway.  There are a host of bunkers on the right hand side which will swallow up drives trying to cut too much off the corner.  However, there's a creek to the left of the fairway that will come into play if the player gets too conservative off the tee and if the conditions are firm.  The 2nd shot plays uphill to a very well protected green.

Here's a view from of the tee taken from the TV tower on #15...


From the fairway... Deep fairway bunkers cutting into the fairway.  Many people may remember there used to be a large tree to left side of the green that played havoc with the 2nd shot.  That is no longer there and the hole is still very tough.  Good move


From behind the green...


The players... Me on the left, and the controversial Joe Leenheer on the right

[Michael George]

Bill:

I love the green complex at #17.  I also like the changes to the bunkering that Nicklaus did.  The waste area bunker never fit the course.  Just need to provide the hole the same definition with trees that the rest of the course has.   

#18 is a great hole. 

Thanks for posting the pictures.  I love MV. A great course and a really special place. 

BTW - who won between you and Joe? 

Joe:

Love the white belt.  Solid fashion statement, another area in which you are contributing to the site - what an introduction.

[Bill McKinley]

Bill:

I love the green complex at #17.  I also like the changes to the bunkering that Nicklaus did.  The waste area bunker never fit the course.  Just need to provide the hole the same definition with trees that the rest of the course has.   

#18 is a great hole. 

Thanks for posting the pictures.  I love MV. A great course and a really special place. 

BTW - who won between you and Joe? 

Joe:

Love the white belt.  Solid fashion statement, another area in which you are contributing to the site - what an introduction.

Michael,

Joe & I have a year long match that we started in 2010.  I won..cough.. comfortably in 2010.  This year has been much closer but I managed to build a decent lead thanks to our round at Muirfield Village.  Now Joe is trying to get me to come play in 35 degree temps to make his comeback!

[Joe Leenheer]

Note...I am neither "controversial" nor a "player"....well maybe a little of one those depending on who you ask.

Michael- as Bill mentioned...I got thumped...we were All Square on #1 through approximately 270 holes...I walked off #18 8 down. 

MVGC is a fantastic club and course.  One question I ask myself after playing a big time facility is "Could I play here everyday?".  MV gets a big YES from me thus making it a "fantastic club".  Great variety of holes and I'm sure it keeps it's members guessing/learning round after round (especially if Mr. Nicklaus keeps tinkering). 

First Impression:  Man this is hillier than I expected.

If I had one, very small, bone to pick, it's how the course bounces back and forth from feeling very classic and natural to manicured and shaped.  The Par 5's are fantastic (with #7 being saved by the green structure).  The Par 3's...8 seems a bit lost, 12 is very fun, the pond on 16 feels out of place (but I agree the hole could look better with grandstands and crowds...which IMO is not an ideal way to design).  #4 was my favorite as it seemed the most natural.  I hit 4 hybrid into each par 3 except 12.  I would have liked a little bit more variety.  #14...one of the 100 greatest holes...although beautiful...it didn't blow my socks off.

My first go at the Doak Scale: I would give it an 8 (closer to a 9 if played firm and fast as intended).

[Philip Caccamise]

In a hotel in Dublin with a tee time tomorrow morning and I can't sleep. Can you blame me?!?

Taking the camera tomorrow and will try to post some pics with the President's Cup setup.

[Jim Nugent]

It looks like water comes into play on 11 holes.  Does this seem like too much, especially for average golfers?  

[BHoover]

It looks like water comes into play on 11 holes.  Does this seem like too much, especially for average golfers?  

Jim, if this were the typical members course, then yes, it might be too much. But my understanding is that MVGC exists, first and foremost, as the home of the Memorial. Mr. Nicklaus makes no bones about the fact that the course is a tournament course. Would I want that at my club? Probably not, but if it works at MVGC, who are we to complain.

For the record, I made maybe the greatest par in my life on 18 during my round at MVGC. I hit my drive WAY left over the creek that borders the fairway. Hit a wedge into the fairway, then hit 8 iron pin high...until it spun back off the green. Then holed a 30+ footer from off the green for the par. It was a good way to end the day.

[Steve Kline]

A number of those instances are creeks. I have no real problems with creeks because they are easier to avoid for the bad player but still pose a problem for the good player. I don't like lakes too much though.

[Philip Caccamise]

Back after a chamber of commerce day in Columbus.

First impression: It is a tournament course first, and an enjoyable course second. I've never enjoyed Nicklaus courses and while the overall experience was fantastic (wonderful clubhouse, employees, caddies, conditioning, etc) it's not my favorite golf. Of the three top 100 courses I've played for the first time this year, if I had 10 rounds I'd play 7 at Camargo, 2 at Victoria National, and 1 at Muirfield Village. I'd share a lot of the opinion expressed here- the par 5's were excellent, the par 3's a nice variety, but the 4's all seemed to be long and difficult. They are watering the fairways heavily right now so there was very little bounce. I really liked the greens, true and fair.

I did not play well. Made a couple birdies but too many others.

They are constructing the stands on the back 9 first right now.
#11


#12


#13


#16


#17


#18

[Brian Finn]

Phillip,
Thanks for sharing your photos from today. The course looks great in these most recent photos.  Was the course playing pretty firm?  One of the things I am most looking forward to at the President's cup is (hopefully) firmer conditions than they typically get for The Memorial.  I've lived in Columbus for 3 years now, but haven't yet played MVGC, but it is always wonderful to walk the course and watch the pros play it.  

[Matthew Sander]

Philip,

The rough looks pretty tame in the photos. Is this the case? Does Couples have the same influence in course presentation and setup as a home Ryder Cup captain?

[Chris_Hufnagel]

My first go at the Doak Scale: I would give it an 8 (closer to a 9 if played firm and fast as intended).

So, dumb question...

I was just reading this thread and the "F&F as intended" struck me funny - did Muirhead and Nicklaus actually intend MVGC to play F&F?  Maybe they did, but when I look at the design and reflect on the prevailing sentiment of golf architecture in that era, plus all the other courses Nicklaus has his name on (except some of the more recent ones) - I don't see it.  He may have wanted fast greens and great conditioning (ala ANGC), but I don't equate that to F&F.

Am I missing something?

For what it is worth, Doak gave MVGC an 8 as well...

[Philip Caccamise]

Brian- The fairways and rough were very soft. The greens were firm, but held good shots. My buddy (that isn't in any of the shots) is a greenskeeper and he thought they would overwater for another week or two then turn off the water to let it firm up.

Matt- the rough was plenty rough. It's very healthy, only about 3.5" in most spots, but it's very thick and unless you get lucky it eats your club up. Around the greens was manageable though.

I also would rate it a Doak 8.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Brian- The fairways and rough were very soft. The greens were firm, but held good shots. My buddy (that isn't in any of the shots) is a greenskeeper and he thought they would overwater for another week or two then turn off the water to let it firm up.

I know that they have had quiet a few rain events with substantial rains this summer. If the fairways were soft, "blame it on the rain." All the spot handwatering of fairways that Paul Latshaw and his staff do to only hit the spot that need it and also prevent disease from overwatering is some of the best management practices in the business. Paul Latshaw and "Overwatering" are 2 words you'll never hear together.

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