New Member Intro..Another guy from the Mecca of Golf…Ohio

[Tim Martin]

Joe,

Tis better to judge a man for what he does than where he learned to do it.

Keats or Judge Smails?

[Jon Wiggett]

That you are able to get around one of those resources, in my opinion, makes you far more disillusioned and less likely to give decent advice on which course to play.

How about here for starters!!!!!

Just cause I think the advice isn't decent doesn't mean he is unable to give it. Please don't confuse a qualitative measure for one of ability. His system is perfectly valid - I just don't think it's terribly valuable.

That is pretty much the basis of all discussions on taste.

wow Kyle,

that really is a warped point of view

Jon

[Kyle Harris]

That you are able to get around one of those resources, in my opinion, makes you far more disillusioned and less likely to give decent advice on which course to play.

How about here for starters!!!!!

Just cause I think the advice isn't decent doesn't mean he is unable to give it. Please don't confuse a qualitative measure for one of ability. His system is perfectly valid - I just don't think it's terribly valuable.

That is pretty much the basis of all discussions on taste.

wow Kyle,

that really is a warped point of view

Jon

Not sure I follow why that is warped compared to other methods of evaluation.

I wouldn't find an opinion based on the flower beds placed around a golf course to be valuable either, but it's perfectly valid. In general, I eschew things like level of service from the bar/restaurant/golf staff while others form perfectly valid opinions based on that.

That Joe emphasizes his ability to play courses without bias from the wallet is perfectly valid, I don't think it's very valuable though.

I also don't think Joe's "ability" is unique to this board, which is perhaps a reason why there is some fight in a few participants.

[Jon Wiggett]

Kyle,

Joe was talking about ‘course and its design’ and not value for money. I believe that the ability to form an opinion of worth about a course and its design is perfectly possible without bringing money into the equation.

I find most people’s opinion of if a course is good or not is worth listening to. To me the worth of their opinion bears no regard to their playing ability, age, experience or wealth. Just because I may not agree with it does not make it any less valid

You seem to be pushing the line of thought that the greater the economical impact of playing a course is for a player, the greater weight opinion of said player will have. I do not agree.

Also Kyle, why do you substitute Joe’s word of blessed with the word "ability" to support your point? And why would the fact that Joe does not bring anything unique to the group lessen the weight of his opinion.

Why do I say warped? Because deeming that a person’s opinion is of a lesser worth if the greenfee costs do not influence their opinion of a course and its design seems to me to be so.

Jon

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

Joe was talking about ‘course and its design’ and not value for money. I believe that the ability to form an opinion of worth about a course and its design is perfectly possible without bringing money into the equation.

I find most people’s opinion of if a course is good or not is worth listening to. To me the worth of their opinion bears no regard to their playing ability, age, experience or wealth. Just because I may not agree with it does not make it any less valid

You seem to be pushing the line of thought that the greater the economical impact of playing a course is for a player, the greater weight opinion of said player will have. I do not agree.

Also Kyle, why do you substitute Joe’s word of blessed with the word "ability" to support your point? And why would the fact that Joe does not bring anything unique to the group lessen the weight of his opinion.

Why do I say warped? Because deeming that a person’s opinion is of a lesser worth if the greenfee costs do not influence their opinion of a course and its design seems to me to be so.

Jon

Jon,

I'm afraid I feel you're mischaracterizing my view on a few levels.

Namely, that golf is a consumer art. This means that the economic output (cost to build and maintain) is inextricably linked to the quality of the product. If one stops maintaining the golf course, it ceases to exist as one. A golf course is worthless, regardless of the artistic measures of it's design, if nobody can support the course to exist.

When a golf course opens, it enters the market for a pool of golfers that are tied by any number of factors - economic and financial among them. This is somewhat linked to the "Golf Fantasy" thread started by Don Mahaffey. A golf course can rarely exist for purely art's sake.

Alright, so we have Joe who is capable of divorcing the financial aspect from the golf architecture aspect. In terms of artistic critique, this is valuable. In terms of advancing the art, this is almost worthless as the lessons learned from that golf course must be thrown back into the economic reality to be applied anywhere AND to continue to maintain the golf course itself. Say Joe goes to play Whistling Straights for $275 and determines while it was a good course, it wasn't worth the $275. Then say Joe, instead of playing the golf course for $275 gets comped. His experience is changed on many levels here - including the economic decisions required by him to both save and spend the $275 vs. the freebie. This removes Joe from the reality of how the art is to be consumed. To me, the bigger statement of course quality is whether or not he'd pay that fee again. Not whether or not he liked it. As you may note in my opening post, I said that I vehemently disgaree. Not that his methods were invalid or by some essence wrong - just that their weakness is compounded by the economic realities of the golf business in my view.

The weakness in my method is that I'll likely never be able to fully evaluate a course that is on the extreme of expense - however the strength of my method is that I can evaluate and judge a modestly priced course for value and quality. I like showing people great golf architecture for a modest, accessible price. I also think that those who value my opinion will also get a great sense of how I feel about the places that ARE expensive that I do return to and pay full freight (Tobacco Road, for example).

Joe's opinion is not worthless because it functions the same way as many levels on this board. That's a leap on your part. I think Joe may have felt he was bringing something unique to our table is all - which is a likely reason he mentioned it and is a likely reason why I may be overemphasizing his position.

[Sven Nilsen]

What a welcome.  Perhaps we should start over.

Joe, GCA.  GCA, Joe.  Have fun.

[Bill McKinley]

Completely agree with Sven!

Kyle,

Here's the deal.  That is your opinion.  It is not shared by very many people on this board.  Just because there aren't a bunch of guys arguing with you doesn't mean that people agree with you, it just means they would rather talk about other things than argue with you. 

I think the overwhelming majority of people on this board can see the "value" in playing a modestly priced course that turns out to be nice, who wouldn't.  But, and this is the big part here, I think most of us can also see the "value" in playing a golf course like Pebble Beach or many of the greats in Scotland or Ireland for a high green fee.  Now there are also some places in Scotland and Ireland that would be classified as hidden gems, but there is still plenty of value in teeing it up at The Old Course or Turnberry for $300 give or take.  Don't tell me that there isn't and don't tell me that I have to somehow give up something else to in order to play a golf course for more than $80.

Bottom line, you've made your opinion known.  So, lets all just agree to disagree if we have to and talk about more fun things than greens fees!   

[Michael George]

Bill:

I agree with you fully.

For those gca'ers that belong to great clubs with high guest fees.  I have a checkbook and will travel. 

[Will Lozier]

Kyle,

You obviously like to hear yourself "talk" (and to look at your pic!) yet you are making very little in the way of new or fresh points while being overly wordy - trying to be your typical "authoritative internet presence" - attempting to make the same basic point in a hundred different ways without being successful.  Perhaps give it a rest and move on to another argument. 

Cheers

[Chris_Blakely]

Joe,

From another current Ohioan, welcome to the board.

Chris

[Joe Leenheer]

Mulligan....

My Name is Joe Leenheer...I like golf.  Look forward to the discussions....


Kyle - I'm happy that you noticed my comments were light hearted and thank you for making my intro such a hot topic!  Note: if and when I play your course I'll pay full greens fees and give you my honest opinion.

Jonathan- My favorite course/courses in Ohio...

Canton Brookside CC - fantastic Ross that has greens that would never be built today.

Canterbury GC -If I didn't put this on here I would never be invited back....it is however one of the best championship courses I have ever played.  ALL of my clubs need cleaned after a round at the "Burr"

The Country Club of Pepper Pike -Flynn -  It's worth the $150 tournament entry fee I pay to play there every fall...plus I just got my first Ace on #5 during said tournament.

Tippecanoe CC- Another Ross with one of my favorite finishes...plus my wife and I got married on the practice range tee...sorry Kyle...another benefit of being a PGA pro as we are not members of the club.

Scioto CC - Ross - Love the bones of the course...not crazy about the new bunkers.

Muirfield Village - Jack - some great use of natural terrain..and some terrible use of a bulldozer.

Sharon Golf Club - ...if you don't know then you don't know.

Honorable Mention - Shaker Height CC, Chagrin Valley, Inverness, Firestone South, Kirtland CC, Congress Lake, Westbrook CC, Pepper Pike Club, Columbus CC, ....I could go on.

P.Craig - I have played Lakewood several times.. consistently some of the best greens anywhere.  The course is very nice, but the land was not blessed with great terrain.  I also think a tree removal program would go a long way there.  I do like the finish as much drama can take place in holes 15-18.    

Let's put a cork on this thread/intro and start talking about some GCA.    


  





  

[Pete Garvey]

Mulligan....

My Name is Joe Leenheer...I like golf.  Look forward to the discussions....


Kyle - I'm happy that you noticed my comments were light hearted and thank you for making my intro such a hot topic!  Note: if and when I play your course I'll pay full greens fees and give you my honest opinion.

Jonathan- My favorite course/courses in Ohio...

Canton Brookside CC - fantastic Ross that has greens that would never be built today.

Canterbury GC -If I didn't put this on here I would never be invited back....it is however one of the best championship courses I have ever played.  ALL of my clubs need cleaned after a round at the "Burr"

The Country Club of Pepper Pike -Flynn -  It's worth the $150 tournament entry fee I pay to play there every fall...plus I just got my first Ace on #5 during said tournament.

Tippecanoe CC- Another Ross with one of my favorite finishes...plus my wife and I got married on the practice range tee...sorry Kyle...another benefit of being a PGA pro as we are not members of the club.

Scioto CC - Ross - Love the bones of the course...not crazy about the new bunkers.

Muirfield Village - Jack - some great use of natural terrain..and some terrible use of a bulldozer.

Sharon Golf Club - ...if you don't know then you don't know.

Honorable Mention - Shaker Height CC, Chagrin Valley, Inverness, Firestone South, Kirtland CC, Congress Lake, Westbrook CC, Pepper Pike Club, Columbus CC, ....I could go on.

P.Craig - I have played Lakewood several times.. consistently some of the best greens anywhere.  The course is very nice, but the land was not blessed with great terrain.  I also think a tree removal program would go a long way there.  I do like the finish as much drama can take place in holes 15-18.    

Let's put a cork on this thread/intro and start talking about some GCA.    


Joe,

Nice list and I agree with you on many.  Ohio truly has some of the games best courses.  Let's not forget some of the great courses in Cincinnati:  Hyde Park, Coldstream, Cincinnati CC, Maketewah and last but certainly not least, Camargo!

PG

  





  

[Jon Wiggett]

Kyle,

this will be my final post on this thread (hallelujah ). To me you seem to confuse value for money which will affect the viability of a golf course with it playing merits. Whether a course is expensive or not does not affect its architectural merits in the least. The condition of the course does but only to a certain extent. Carnoustie was a more enjoyable play in the mid 80's than today even though it condition was poor and for me Alwoodley has lost some of its charm though it remains my favourite inland course in the UK.

Jon

[Joe Leenheer]

Pete,

I have yet had the honor of playing in the golf-rich Cincinnati area.  I feel like Camargo (which would be my first Raynor) could be in the near future if the weather can hold on.  Fingers crossed!

   

[Scott Stearns]

Joe-you gotta tell us about Sharon-its in my top 5 as yet unplayed ohio courses.  built in the 60s, no?  how does it compare to the old line Cleveland clubs you mention?

[Chris_Blakely]

Mulligan....

My Name is Joe Leenheer...I like golf.  Look forward to the discussions....


Kyle - I'm happy that you noticed my comments were light hearted and thank you for making my intro such a hot topic!  Note: if and when I play your course I'll pay full greens fees and give you my honest opinion.

Jonathan- My favorite course/courses in Ohio...

Canton Brookside CC - fantastic Ross that has greens that would never be built today.

Canterbury GC -If I didn't put this on here I would never be invited back....it is however one of the best championship courses I have ever played.  ALL of my clubs need cleaned after a round at the "Burr"

The Country Club of Pepper Pike -Flynn -  It's worth the $150 tournament entry fee I pay to play there every fall...plus I just got my first Ace on #5 during said tournament.

Tippecanoe CC- Another Ross with one of my favorite finishes...plus my wife and I got married on the practice range tee...sorry Kyle...another benefit of being a PGA pro as we are not members of the club.

Scioto CC - Ross - Love the bones of the course...not crazy about the new bunkers.

Muirfield Village - Jack - some great use of natural terrain..and some terrible use of a bulldozer.

Sharon Golf Club - ...if you don't know then you don't know.

Honorable Mention - Shaker Height CC, Chagrin Valley, Inverness, Firestone South, Kirtland CC, Congress Lake, Westbrook CC, Pepper Pike Club, Columbus CC, ....I could go on.

P.Craig - I have played Lakewood several times.. consistently some of the best greens anywhere.  The course is very nice, but the land was not blessed with great terrain.  I also think a tree removal program would go a long way there.  I do like the finish as much drama can take place in holes 15-18.    

Let's put a cork on this thread/intro and start talking about some GCA.    


  Joe,

What are some of your favorite PUBLIC courses in the state of Ohio?  What are some of your favorite hidden gems?  I have mine and am willing to share after you!!

Thanks,

Chris






  

[Evan Fleisher]

Mulligan....

My Name is Joe Leenheer...I like golf.  Look forward to the discussions....


Jonathan- My favorite course/courses in Ohio...

P.Craig - I have played Lakewood several times.. consistently some of the best greens anywhere.  The course is very nice, but the land was not blessed with great terrain.  I also think a tree removal program would go a long way there.  I do like the finish as much drama can take place in holes 15-18.    

+1

Amen brother!

[Kyle Harris]

Will/Michael/Bill,

Save the pontificating until you meet me in person. If you've an issue with my presentation, PM me, or leave a comment elsewhere. My avatar is my picture because that is where the internet is in 2011, same thing with links to personal webpages - full disclosure and transparency. There are dozens of Kyle Harrises out there. My picture and personal webpage make this corner of the web mine.

Nobody has proprietorship over a thread or topic either.

As for the concept of whether or not people agree with me or not. I don't particularly care, but I know some do who are not participating.

Furthermore, you're all focused on price. Price isn't the issue, it's paying that cost. I don't care if it's $1, $10, $100 or $1000. You're also all focused on financial output, when the time required to play the course over another (the opportunity cost) is just as much of a factor as well. You cannot play two golf courses at the same time. How price/value/quality fit into the decision is what I care about. Of course there is value to playing St. Andrews, Pebble Beach, etc. However, given a limited resource pool, you'll have to make up the marginal value between the next best option to feel satisfied with your decision. When that resource pool is skewed, the decision is skewed and therefore the opinion is also skewed.

There is also a regional element as well. Think of the most expensive course in your area, then think of the cheapest. If the cheapest is $10 and the most expensive is $100, is one round at the $100 course really worth 10 rounds at the $10 course? Then eliminate the extremes and start to make comparisons between other courses. (I'm just using the numbers because they're easy with which to work).

I think you'll suddenly really start to analyze more than just the "value" of the course, but what actually draws you to one course over the other architecturally - or whatever other factors matter to you. What aspects of certain courses make up the difference in price to you over the others?

I think this really has more value than a simple golf course ranking based solely on quality. Where Joe set me off on this discussion is that he placed it in the introduction and is the first person I know that actually made the statement that somehow this sets his analysis apart or that he wouldn't pull a punch because of the wallet factor. An average rater isn't going to engage that discussion and most industry people either don't particularly care or understand enough about the market factors that they're able to at least place their opinions in a value context naturally.

My personal experience is that there is a large difference in perception of the golf course and it's merits when you're actually having to make financial and economic decisions to play the golf course. So yes, Joe can form a perfectly valid judgment divorced from his wallet but I don't find it particularly useful because it does not reflect the actual way most of the golf market makes their decisions.

[JNC Lyon]

"GolfClubAtlas.com is presented to promote frank commentary on golf course architecture."

For a group of people who post on such a site, a lot of folks seem to be getting really upset at someone trying to discuss golf courses frankly!

Joe L.,

Welcome to the site.  I think it is always interesting to have the perspective of a golf pro on GCA.  We have several that post on the site.  Additionally, if you have read the site, you know that there can be some VERY interesting discussions on here where the participants aren't afraid to express their opinion.  To me, this is one of the best parts about this site--and for me it really gets the creative juices flowing.  Lucky for you, you stumbled onto such a discussion on your first thread!  You can learn a ton about golf architecture from these threads if you keep an open mind.

[Ryan DeMay]

Joe,

Welcome to GCA from a long time lurker, occasional poster, and fellow Ohioian.  It is always good to have another Buckeye around here.  



Not to get drawn in to the fray too deeply but, I too work "in the industry" as a superintendent.  My experience runs the gamut of a mom and pop with a total of five employees (including clubhouse and grounds staff) to a Top 100 club with the highest level of service and ambiance.  While each of the five golf facilities I have worked for have used a comment card or customer satisfaction survey of some type, the best one by far came from the mom and pop where I started my career.  It was simply an index card with the question "Would you come back and play the golf course again?" handwritten in black ink.  Really, when you think about it that's the most effective question about value (real or perceived) that needs to be answered by our customers.

[JNC Lyon]

Kyle,

Here's the deal.  That is your opinion.  It is not shared by very many people on this board.  Just because there aren't a bunch of guys arguing with you doesn't mean that people agree with you, it just means they would rather talk about other things than argue with you. 
  

Bill,

I'm not sure where you came up with this statement, but I think you're off-base.  There are several people on this board who are very concerned with value when it comes to golf courses.  Golf architecture is an art form, yes, but it is also much more exclusionary than other art forms.  Thus, value has to be a critical part of the assessment when judging a golf course.  This isn't just assessed in the greens fees of the course, but also in how much the construction of the golf course cost, and how much the maintenance costs are.  Golf courses are part art, part function.  It's best to assess them as such.  $500 is too much pay to play anywhere, by the way.

In the future, it's probably not a good idea to tell someone that nobody agrees with them when:
a) You haven't polled the "body" you're referring to.
b) There are people who agree with them!

[Jason Walker]

JNC Lyon-

Just for kicks, what is the MAXIMUM you'll pay to play anywhere (obviously below $500 since you've called that out)?  Also, is that total cost (transportation, lodging if need be, etc)?  And how is your MAXIMUM determined?

[JNC Lyon]

Jason,

Hmm, good question.  If you include total cost of transportation and lodging, the question gets more complicated.  $250 straight-up for one round would be about the breaking point for me.  If said course is in my backyard, I'd be willing to pay a little bit more for a greens fee.  If travel is involved, I'd likely be willing to pay less.

My maximum is partially determined by economic constraints, but that's probably not a good barometer because I spend a good deal of my disposable income on golf anyway.  A lot of that standard is based on what I've paid to play some seriously good golf courses in the past.  It cost me around 120 USD to play Royal St. George's, host of this year's Open Championship, when I spent four months in London.  Train ticket brought the day price up higher, but it still came in well under $250.  My thought is, there probably aren't too many courses in the world that are twice as good as Sandwich (though I've played some that I liked better for a lot less money).

[Bart Bradley]

JNC...really?...If somebody offered you Pine Valley, but it would cost you $350, you would say "no".  I doubt it.

Bart

[JNC Lyon]

Interesting that you say that Bart.  I was offered a chance to play a course on a very similar level to Pine Valley, if not the same level as Pine Valley, earlier this year.  The cost? $350.  My response?  No, thank you.