New Member Intro..Another guy from the Mecca of Golf…Ohio

[Joe Leenheer]

Greetings to all,

My name is Joe Leenheer and I am a PGA Professional from Akron, OH.  Thank you very much to Ran and Ben for allowing me inside access to their wonderful site.

A little bit about me: I grew up in Northeast Ohio and began playing the game at the age of 8.  After high school, I decided to turn my passion for the game into a career (or at least I think that is how the commercial goes) and enrolled at the Golf Academy of America in Myrtle Beach, SC.   Upon graduation I began my PGA Apprenticeship at Oak Hill Country Club, a Donald Ross course located in Fitchburg, MA.  It was there that my eyes were opened to great golf course architecture and have been smitten with it ever since.  After my days in New England, I worked at Silverthorn Country Club (Joe Lee…no relation) in Brooksville, FL for a little over a year under former PGA Tour Player Jerry Heard. 

Whilst in Florida, I was wooed to the west coast by my now wife.  I spent almost three years in the San Diego working at the Morgan Run Club & Resort (Rainville& Bye/Jay Moorish).  Although Southern California is amazingly beautiful with fantastic golf, we traded it in for snow and family and returned home to Ohio in 2007.  I have been the Assistant Professional at Fairlawn Country Club (W.B. Langford) in Akron since.  Growing up in Ohio, I did not have access to, nor knowledge of, the amazing courses that sprinkle the grey state (more cloudy days than any other state).

As a PGA Golf Professional, I have been blessed to be able to see many golf courses in a way that very few do; with a non-monetarily, unbiased opinion.  Whether it is at the courtesy of the home Professional or upon invitation by a member, I am able to enjoy/disapprove of a course and its design without my pocket weighing in (except for Pebble and Pinehurst…one of which I would pay to play again…let the guessing begin ).   I love classic courses, the use of natural terrain, anything quirky or unique, and not giving 3 foot putts. 

As far as those taking me on in the Discussion Group I must forewarn you, I’m always right except when I’m wrong.

Joe Leenheer, PGA

[Kyle Harris]

As a PGA Golf Professional, I have been blessed to be able to see many golf courses in a way that very few do; with a non-monetarily, unbiased opinion.  Whether it is at the courtesy of the home Professional or upon invitation by a member, I am able to enjoy/disapprove of a course and its design without my pocket weighing in (except for Pebble and Pinehurst…one of which I would pay to play again…let the guessing begin ).

Welcome.

Interesting point with which I almost vehemently disagree.

Golf is a sport that requires two main resources to play: time and money. Both are limited. As a PGA Professional, your categorical imperative is to make sure the golfer is getting the most value for the ever-increasing time and money they must spend to play the sport. That you are able to get around one of those resources, in my opinion, makes you far more disillusioned and less likely to give decent advice on which course to play. In order for you to keep your job, or rather, insure the health of the market - it is damn necessary to make sure the game remains affordable in both time AND money.

Why spend $400 to play Pebble when I could spend $40 and play somewhere only marginally worse ten times?

[Cory Lewis]

That you are able to get around one of those resources, in my opinion, makes you far more disillusioned and less likely to give decent advice on which course to play.

So Kyle, what you are saying is that anybody that plays courses for free is not qualified to give advice?

PS-Hell of a way to welcome somebody new!

[Kyle Harris]

That you are able to get around one of those resources, in my opinion, makes you far more disillusioned and less likely to give decent advice on which course to play.

So Kyle, what you are saying is that anybody that plays courses for free is not qualified to give advice?

PS-Hell of a way to welcome somebody new!

Hello Cory

Figured this may get you to respond. I'm not saying he is not qualified - saying it's far less likely, especially considering he considers this situation to be an asset. You very much know my opinion on a place like Jeffersonville, and how much of that is derived from the cost to quality of architect ratio (in Jeffersonville's case: cheap and affordable for very good complete golf). I also would gladly fork over $90 to play Tobacco Road, etc. I will not fork over $325 to play Merion. No golf course is really worth that much to me.

Golf course design is an art-form, but the only way to actually consume the art is to fork over a significant amount of economic resources, or at least SOMEONE has to. Golf, therefore, is one of the few art forms that is not separated from a value argument. However, the standard really isn't one of utilitarian roots. A private club is not trying to be the best value for the most people, for example.

And you know me, have to cut straight to the point.

[David Royer]

Welcome from another N.E. Ohioan living in Dublin.  Ohio is blessed with so many great great courses.  The list has been well documented here.  Trust you know Jeff Camp, PGA of Hudson CC.   Look forward to reading your posts. 

[Cory Lewis]

I also would gladly fork over $90 to play Tobacco Road, etc. I will not fork over $325 to play Merion. No golf course is really worth that much to me.
Golf course design is an art-form, but the only way to actually consume the art is to fork over a significant amount of economic resources, or at least SOMEONE has to.

With that being said, how do you justify working someplace that is ultimately going to charge people about $150 to $250 a round.  Yes, I'm sure they are awesome, but your surivival is dependent on people doing what you think they shouldn't, which is pay alot of money for something they will not get their perceived value out of.

[Michael George]

Kyle:

It was his first post.  Can't you just say "welcome".

[Bill McKinley]

Welcome to the Treehouse Joe!  And this thread is taking and interesting turn thanks to Kyle there.  As far as my two cents on that matter, the last thing that is on my mind after I walk off the 1st tee is how much did I pay for this round?

And Joe, I will remember your comments the next time we play and you look at me funny  for not giving you a 3 footer!

32 up.

[Kyle Harris]

I also would gladly fork over $90 to play Tobacco Road, etc. I will not fork over $325 to play Merion. No golf course is really worth that much to me.
Golf course design is an art-form, but the only way to actually consume the art is to fork over a significant amount of economic resources, or at least SOMEONE has to.

With that being said, how do you justify working someplace that is ultimately going to charge people about $150 to $250 a round.  Yes, I'm sure they are awesome, but your surivival is dependent on people doing what you think they shouldn't, which is pay alot of money for something they will not get their perceived value out of.

My qualifiers are "to me," and I think that's where you're tripping up. That is where I was going with the private club example at the end of my last post. There are going to be "brackets" for taste. You could take Jeffersonville and then compare it to Paxon Hollow - which is almost twice the green fee or Glen Mills which is now broaching three times the green fee. Since these are all courses that are likely competing for the same pool of golfers the cost is certainly a factor. Is Glen Mills really worth three times the output of Jeffersonville? Wouldn't cost factor in to how frequently a golfer visits each? I've not played Glen Mills yet, almost entirely because of that cost. I can understand that Joe, and most, would consider Glen Mills the better golf course - but taking a $90-100 hit to play the place is also a factor into the enjoyment of the course. In my opinion, Jeffersonville is the more compelling play because it's easier to spend $30 three times and really learn the course.

The retort to my Pebble Beach argument is it would be a once in a lifetime experience. There can always be SOMETHING that makes up the value argument - which is amongst the many reasons why comparison discussions get be so interesting. If you're going to tell someone what you think of the course, isn't saying the place was WORTH what I spent that much more compelling?

It's not that I don't think people shouldn't spend a lot of money, it's that I think golf course enjoyment is ultimately tied the cost of the sport.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle:

It was his first post.  Can't you just say "welcome".

Michael:

See his last line in the introduction - what better way to get to know than jump right in.

I did say welcome too!

[Cory Lewis]

Sorry for the threadjack guys!  I will refrain from posting anymore!  Welcome Joe, it's always good to have another PGA Professional on the board.

[Will Lozier]

Joe,

Welcome.  Have you ever made it down to Springfield to play my hidden gem Springfield CC, a Ross which has been hosting Open Sectional Qualifiers 3 of the last 4 years?  If you haven't, you need to.  

As a former PGA Apprentice (who decided that the love of teaching the game didn't trump my loathing of running the shop), I agree that a different perspective can be taken when one isn't shelling out of one's own pocket.  Interesting point as I've never really thought about it before.

Again, welcome and don't hesitate to mix it up right away!


Cheers

[Ed Brzezowski]

Ohio the Mecca of golf???  everyone knows it's Philly. Besides it's in the eastern U.S.

[PCCraig]

Welcome Joe!!!

[BHoover]

Welcome, Joe. As someone who also grew up in NE Ohio (North Canton), it's always nice to run across someone from my neck of the woods. And there is some fantastic golf in NE Ohio, in spite of the weather.

My wife and I had our wedding reception at Fairlawn CC. But we got married just after Xmas in 2008, so I didn't get to see much of the course.

[Joe Leenheer]

Thanks to all for the welcome.

First I need to put someone in his place....

Bill- you're only up 8 this year. Stop living in the past.

Will- have not had the pleasure of teeing it at Springfield but I have heard good things. Didn't think my intro had any spoons in it!

Ed- Philly: good sandwich, great courses!

and Kyle...

Thanks for your feedback. One thing I've learned by being on the other side of the counter is not to argue with people as very few are able to see anything other then their own opinion (which they are entitled to).

As for your thoughts on my ability to discern quality vs value because there are times I don't pay up before teeing up...ok ;-) You're wrong. But ok.

I do agree PGA Professionals are charged with the duty of growing the game, improving the quality of experience, and helping golfers enjoy the game more by improving their abilities.

I agree very much that the world is driven by time and money....and no one has enough of both.

Money: Very rarely does the Professional have any say in the price of a round or membership. As for Merion being $350 a pop...what do you think pays for those sweet wickers?

The "Time" issue is easy. Jump in a cart! ;-)

Thanks for the welcome!

[PThomas]

just a friendly welcome here Joe

[Brian Hilko]

Welcome Joe. FYI, The Ipga is a much better section.   

[Kyle Harris]

Hey Joe:

I was an apprentice from 2001-2006. PSU PGM. I am now a golf course superintendent. I'm well aware of the view from behind the counter. I'm well aware of playing free golf. I'm also well aware of how it skews an opinion, or rather, disassociates one from value in golf. I guess my question for you is whether or not you'd play a round of golf for some arbitrarily large amount of money if you weren't getting the comp? Your golf budget, and therefore golf experience, is skewed and therefore your decision making process on where to play is also skewed.

What is the most you would regularly pay to play golf? How does that line up with the golf courses in your area? Where would you end up playing?

What I am confused about is that you are now saying you are able to judge the quality vs. value but in your initial post said that the fact that you don't pay sometimes gives you an unbiased view. In fact, you say your pocket does not weigh in. How do you rectify this position with your stated ability to judge value?

I know you're joking about the time thing, but I feel it's actually more important than the money thing.
http://kylewharris.com/2011/05/16/the-golf-industrys-adolescenc/

[Tim Martin]

Joe-Welcome. It seems as if the ranks from Ohio are swelling of late. Kyle must be cranky due to the lack of WaWa`s in his present location.

[Kyle Harris]

Joe-Welcome. It seems as if the ranks from Ohio are swelling of late. Kyle must be cranky due to the lack of WaWa`s in his present location.

Tim:

Au contraire!

http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/retail/wawa-gas-stations-are-coming-to-central-florida-tampa-bay/1118528

[Evan Fleisher]

Joe,

Another WARM welcome from a fellow NEO GCA golfer.  Looking forward to the opportunity to tee it up next season together.  We've got a number of NEO GCA guys here and last year we did a mini-outing in Cleveland.  I'm sure we will try to do it again, so be on the lookout in the Spring for the invite.

[Tim Martin]

Joe-Welcome. It seems as if the ranks from Ohio are swelling of late. Kyle must be cranky due to the lack of WaWa`s in his present location.

Tim:

Au contraire!

http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/retail/wawa-gas-stations-are-coming-to-central-florida-tampa-bay/1118528

Kyle-Nicely done. Hope all is well in Fla.!

[Joe Leenheer]

Kyle,

Your questions are all based on your interpretation of various things as well as your assumption I have never paid "some arbitrarily large amount of money" to play golf.  I paid regular fees at Pebble for myself and my wife, plus caddie, and we stayed two nights at the Lodge.  If you want to do the math it was over $2k....arbitrary enough for you?

"What is the most you would regularly pay to play golf?" is a terrible question because that is based upon how much discretionary income a person has as well as how often "regularly" is.  For some 20 rounds a golf a year is alot, to another it's a good month.  One mans $5 bill is another mans $50.  Each person has there own interepation on value when it comes to their own money (which directly correlates to how much they have).  To one person it's a deal, to the next a rip off (I'm guessing you are normally the later). 

For myself, I would MUCH rather play one round at Merion for $350 than 10 rounds at a course 10x worse for $35.  That one round, for me, would be more memorable than a 100 rounds at said $35 course.  After playing (regardless if I played for free or not) I would most definitly be able to answer the question for myself if $350 is a fair price.

 

 

[John Kavanaugh]

Joe,

Tis better to judge a man for what he does than where he learned to do it.