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Shane Gurnett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Holes without bunkers
« on: January 04, 2002, 02:52:28 AM »
Any opinions on the best sand free holes out there?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Holes without bunkers
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2002, 03:02:16 AM »
Shane

Do used to be's count?

Until our club couldn't stand success, the 10th hole, at Preakness Hills,  a par 5, with a creek semi surrounding the green and a creek off the tee, sloping fairway in the drive zone, right to left, prevailing wind right to left.  
Great risk/reward hole.  Now two fairway bunkers pinch the fairway in the landing zone to 18 yards. so a ball hit to the right side goes in the bunker instead of ending up in the fairway, and a ball hit in the middle of the fairway ends up in the left bunker.  When the bunkers were done, trees were placed next to the fairway by the green, taking away the option of favoring a side of the fairway for your third shot approach.

We also had/have a 235 yard par 3 that didn't have a bunker until one was put in, in the name of fairness.

The bunkers didn't ruin both holes, but they detracted from the feel of the golf course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Holes without bunkers
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2002, 07:05:13 AM »
Sure, any holes that contain enough great natural feature!! Some of the best examples and the best places to go without sand bunkers is in the "gravity golf" areas.

We had that at Ardrossan. There was some great places for bunkering but then there was this two hole stretch where gravity golf was so prevalent that it was certainly my intention to bunker the holes perceding these two holes and then picking it up again on the holes that followed them where other natural things didn't exist so much and there were some great places for bunkering!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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BillV

Re: Holes without bunkers
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2002, 07:18:54 AM »
In Loveland or Lafayette, CO, I forget which ???, RTJ II built a muni called Ute Creek. Overall a really solid course for about $22-27 to play!

A really good grrrn complex and a subtle fairway turn combine to make the bunkerless 3rd hole 440 (405 ish sea level equivalent) par 4 a really good one.  Several well-designed green contours and greenside hollows combine to give a darned good hole.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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A_Clay_Man

Re: Holes without bunkers
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2002, 07:20:53 AM »
How about the first and last at the Old Course. Does that count ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tom (Guest)

Re: Holes without bunkers
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2002, 07:20:56 AM »
The 1st at Royal Liverpool
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes without bunkers
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2002, 07:26:58 AM »
Hole #14, Augusta National GC.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Holes without bunkers
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2002, 08:24:38 AM »
JamieS:

Where've you been hiding? Good news for you--you'll be defending your Patterson Cup Championship in 2002 at Aronomink and Applebrook!! Hope it blows like Hell--a smart course manager like you will have a REpeat no problem!! Might even see about putting you off in the Rabbit spot again so you can post the winning score in the flash time you did last year! Might even see about getting you off Applebrook first and you can repair to Aronomink's pool for the rest of the day with a nice architectural book and wait to see if anyone can catch you!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Rich_Goodale

Re: Holes without bunkers
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2002, 08:36:18 AM »
One obvious answer is the 14th at Dornoch.  There are many places where bunkers could be placed, and would look perfectly "natural", but doing so would significantly diminish the quality and the challenge of that hole.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Gary Smith (Guest)

Re: Holes without bunkers
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2002, 08:43:16 AM »
It's been years since I was last at Medinah #3, but I don't recall a bunker on #12, a long, strong par 4. Blind off the tee, with a left to right downhill fairway, than uphill to the green. There used to be a large oak hugging the left side of the green, with a finger of the lake situated well down below the right hand side. A very, very tough hole. Back in the early '80s, before the revisions, this was actually the 16th hole.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Steve Sayers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes without bunkers
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2002, 09:20:15 AM »
How about Lu Lu’s 8th –
421 yards (down hill)
Grass cross-bunker about 30 yards short of a punch bowl green and another short left of the green.  

It is not the "best" sand free hole, but it's sure is fun to play.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »
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SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes without bunkers
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2002, 09:47:59 AM »
11 at The Creek. Admittedly it is an island green (and a biarritz, at that). But it still doesn't have any bunkers.  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes without bunkers
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2002, 10:22:12 AM »
I agree with Rich.  The 14th at Royal Dornoch - "FOXY" -
is one of the best holes in the world with no bunkers!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes without bunkers
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2002, 10:37:41 AM »
Shane:

#11 at Ballybunion
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tim Weiman

GeoffreyC

Re: Holes without bunkers
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2002, 12:13:12 PM »
Rich and Tim hit the best examples I know.

#14 at Yale is awfully good too.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »
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JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes without bunkers
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2002, 01:29:02 PM »
Tom..aka. Doyen,

363 Posts, I don't have to ask where you've been hiding. I did see that the Patterson Cup will be at those two venues. Needless to say, I can't wait.  Let's see in the Springtime if we can't get out to Applebrook together for a practice round of sorts.

In other news, I resigned my membership at Little Mill, and was asked to join Tavistock, which I did. I would love to host you and a couple of fellas' for a round, when the course shapes up this year.  I'd be interested to get your take on the greens at Tavistock. They have some of the most interesting interior contouring you will find in our area. After not playing there in years I had forgotten how tough they can be. I have learned that Alex Findlay was the original designer of Tavistock in 1921, I am not that familiar with his work, do you know any info on him?

Hope all is well...Happy New Year!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Holes without bunkers
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2002, 04:13:03 PM »
Geoffrey C,

Did the original 14th at YALE have bunkers at or behind the green ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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mps

Re: Holes without bunkers
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2002, 04:28:51 PM »
Another vote for RD's Foxy - no bunkers & it doesn't need any.  A sandless bogey hole!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes without bunkers
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2002, 05:07:18 PM »
Oh, yeah.  #11 at Ballybunion is awesome too. ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

GeoffreyC

Re: Holes without bunkers
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2002, 08:30:40 PM »
Pat

Studying the 1934 aerial, I can find no evidence for any bunkers on #14 at Yale.  

There is a good current photo of the green in Ran's course profile.  The green complex is really challenging to hit even with the wedge approach most often left after a reasonable 3-wood off the tee.  Rarely do you get a level lie in that fairway. Miss right or long and your are dead.  Miss short and it's a difficult shot too.

For me, however, the best/most fun part of the hole is the tee shot.  Raynor created a great tee shot by blasting away a huge section of hillside to create a large left to right ramp to bank the ball off.  It's a joy to watch a ball take the hill and funnel another 30 yards down into the fairway and down to the right.  Miss the bank on the dogleg and the ball runs all the way into the woods (in the summer when its dry).  

There is another example of poor maintenance at this hole as I'm sure the whole area was meant to be cut to fairway height (as you pointed out for the right side of #16). There is currently too much rough above the cut created to make the fairway.  Rough creates a difficult approach into the table top green but it would be better to watch the ball roll all over the place.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Turner

Re: Holes without bunkers
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2002, 01:44:55 AM »
I reckon Rye has the best set with 4th,5th,18th
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff Mingay

Re: Holes without bunkers
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2002, 07:13:28 AM »
Whenever the subject of bunkerless holes comes up, I think of the 460 yard 16th at Highlands Links.

Highlands Links occupies what would be considered today a difficult property on which to place a golf course. What Thompson accomplished there during the late 1930s is nothing short of genius.

It's pretty clear that he used the 16th hole to get golfers from the 15th green to the 17th tee. These two holes are excellent natural venues for golf.

Still, the 16th is a wonderfully unique hole -- unlike any other to my acquaintace -- played straight up a hill over some of the boldest natural contour in golfdom! The view from the tiny green, at the peak of the hill, is awesome.

The 16th is quirky though; and thus routinely overlooked as one of the most interesting holes on the course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Solario

Re: Holes without bunkers
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2002, 01:01:51 PM »
Two of my favorite holes without bunkers come from the duo of Crenshaw and Coore.  The par five 15th at Kapalua's Plantation course and the par four 18th at Notre Dame's Warren Course.  Both of these holes are some of the stronger holes on the course too.  The 18th at the Warren is one of the top five finishing holes in Indiana. It's tough.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes without bunkers
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2002, 01:19:06 PM »
Jamie,
    I believe Mike Cirba knows quite a bit about Alex Findlay.  Try him.  MCirba@aol.com

One of the best holes at my home club, #11 at Wake Forest GC, is sans sand (only one on course) and it doesn't need it.  Short par 4, iron off tee to avoid creek on left, then dogleg left up a steep hill to the toughest green on the course.  Front pin placement is easier to get to by missing short of green than back of green (even on the green pin high sometimes).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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