Hickory golf and marketing

[John Mayhugh]

John,

Glad to help. If you are coming East next season and want to play hickories, I have a set of eighties from Tim for people to use.

Cheers, Mike

That's very thoughtful.  Thanks.  I may have to take you up on that, if I could just figure out somewhere up there that hickories would be a good fit. 

[Mike Policano]

Hah, there is a couple good fits. We are lining up courses that were built during the hickory age. Ridgewood by AWT at 6,000 yards is very good. You can run it up on a number of holes except the par 3's, but they are just a mashie or less. Paramount by AWT at similiar yardage is also a treat with very good greens. Morris County is a Raynor that is very hickory friendly. There are a half a dozen other Golden Age classics we are discussing but have yet to contact.

[RSLivingston_III]

Gentleman, thank you for posting the link to the East coast regional group.
I had started a page on regional groups on my site but was missing a group representing the east side of the US.

Regarding the eras dress, in my years of play experience it was done primarily for events and tournaments, it wasn't worth the grief to be dressed in a non-hickory event environment. I found +4s, dress shirt and tie were very comfortable. But most of my casual rounds were done wearing a golf shirt and dress slacks.

Dressing appropriately makes sense as a reason to be playing with the clubs as part of a recreation of the era. There are reasons these clothes came to be used and, like playing the clubs, experience is the best way to learn it.

[John Mayhugh]

Dressing appropriately makes sense as a reason to be playing with the clubs as part of a recreation of the era. There are reasons these clothes came to be used and, like playing the clubs, experience is the best way to learn it.

Could you elaborate? 

In my case, the period clothes really did more to discourage interest in playing with the clubs.  Maybe I'm the only one.

[Mike Policano]

Ralph,

Thanks for joining in. It is great to hear from one of those responsible for the resurgence of hickory play.

Ralph's book on Tom Stewart and his irons is a masterpiece.

Ralph's site is www.hickorygolf.com

[Jud_T]

Ralph's book on Tom Stewart and his irons is a masterpiece.

+1

[Clyde Johnston]

Playing hickories is fun. They really make you appreciate the modern equipment we have now. And yes, I have dressed the part with knickers, dress shirt and tie for each of the dozen or so events I've played in.
I was lucky to find a matched set of George Nicoll irons circa late 1920's (not as good as Tom Stewart but well made clubs) to which I added a Walter Hagen Iron Man sand wedge. It's hard to find good woods so I had Mike Just of Louisville Golf made a Driving Brassie and Cleek for me. I'm still looking for decent "original equipment" woods but no luck so far.
I also have a set of the Keepers of the Green clubs made in the style Old Tom Morris would have made back in the late 1800's. Played a few events with them so far also.

[RSLivingston_III]

Dressing appropriately makes sense as a reason to be playing with the clubs as part of a recreation of the era. There are reasons these clothes came to be used and, like playing the clubs, experience is the best way to learn it.

Could you elaborate? 

In my case, the period clothes really did more to discourage interest in playing with the clubs.  Maybe I'm the only one.

i am not a good enough writer to describe the beniefits, that is why I said it needs to be experienced.
A big part of this, IMO, is about finding your own way. I can only tell you what I have experienced and what I have seen as commonalities amongst new-ish players in their experiences.

Mike sounds like you are getting along with your clubs very well. I bet Tim's work was a big part of it.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Ralph,
I was given a dozen 'replica' balls that are of similar construction as the square mesh ball of the 1920's. As I don't play with hickories I have offered them to some of the players who do show up (we get a few per season) with the old clubs and even though they take the gift of the balls they have all said they don't play with them. The reason: they're already giving up enough yardage with the clubs. They all seem to be playing either older balatas or some of the soft modern balls rather than the 'replicas'.

Is this common?

[Mike Policano]

Ralph,

I am getting along with the clubs very well. Tim has done a great job on them.  It helps to have great clubs to start with. It is amazing how good the clubs feel when the ball and the sweet spot come in contact.

Cheers, Mike

[Pete_Pittock]

One of the best marketing strategies for hickory clubs and bygone balls would be a collaboration between Bandon Golf Resort and Old Bandon Golf Links http://www.oldbandongolflinks.com/

[RSLivingston_III]

Ralph,
I was given a dozen 'replica' balls that are of similar construction as the square mesh ball of the 1920's. As I don't play with hickories I have offered them to some of the players who do show up (we get a few per season) with the old clubs and even though they take the gift of the balls they have all said they don't play with them. The reason: they're already giving up enough yardage with the clubs. They all seem to be playing either older balatas or some of the soft modern balls rather than the 'replicas'.

Is this common?

'IMO' if they are anything other than the MacIntyre replica they are probably best used as display balls and are probably from a production run done for the purpose of display.
There are a couple of events that have been trying to establish the MacIntyre ball as the tournament standard. Until there is a meaningful ruling body for this sport it will continue to be a free-for-all.
There is one group trying...

[Ken Moum]

Ralph,
I was given a dozen 'replica' balls that are of similar construction as the square mesh ball of the 1920's. As I don't play with hickories I have offered them to some of the players who do show up (we get a few per season) with the old clubs and even though they take the gift of the balls they have all said they don't play with them. The reason: they're already giving up enough yardage with the clubs. They all seem to be playing either older balatas or some of the soft modern balls rather than the 'replicas'.

Is this common?

'IMO' if they are anything other than the MacIntyre replica they are probably best used as display balls and are probably from a production run done for the purpose of display.
There are a couple of events that have been trying to establish the MacIntyre ball as the tournament standard. Until there is a meaningful ruling body for this sport it will continue to be a free-for-all.
There is one group trying...

Ralph, I thought I read an interview with you where you suggested that the golf balls used by top players of the 1920s, such as Bobby Jones were probably as "hot" as a ProV V1.

I know that until 1935, they were smaller, and sometimes heavier than modern balls.

I have also read some something from O.B. Keeler (IIRC) that better players of that era played with "tightly wound" and heavy balls that he suggested weren't the best choice for average players.

Given that, and given that most of us are now playing on irrigated fairways, isn't it reasonable that hickory players use modern balls rather than the "standard" ball of the mid-twentieth century?

K

[RSLivingston_III]

Ralph,
I was given a dozen 'replica' balls that are of similar construction as the square mesh ball of the 1920's. As I don't play with hickories I have offered them to some of the players who do show up (we get a few per season) with the old clubs and even though they take the gift of the balls they have all said they don't play with them. The reason: they're already giving up enough yardage with the clubs. They all seem to be playing either older balatas or some of the soft modern balls rather than the 'replicas'.

Is this common?

'IMO' if they are anything other than the MacIntyre replica they are probably best used as display balls and are probably from a production run done for the purpose of display.
There are a couple of events that have been trying to establish the MacIntyre ball as the tournament standard. Until there is a meaningful ruling body for this sport it will continue to be a free-for-all.
There is one group trying...

Ralph, I thought I read an interview with you where you suggested that the golf balls used by top players of the 1920s, such as Bobby Jones were probably as "hot" as a ProV V1.

I know that until 1935, they were smaller, and sometimes heavier than modern balls.

I have also read some something from O.B. Keeler (IIRC) that better players of that era played with "tightly wound" and heavy balls that he suggested weren't the best choice for average players.

Given that, and given that most of us are now playing on irrigated fairways, isn't it reasonable that hickory players use modern balls rather than the "standard" ball of the mid-twentieth century?

K

Ken,
You can play whatever ball you want to, unless you are participating in an event that specifies a particular ball.

[Tom_Doak]

I went out a couple of years ago at Crystal Downs and played with my mom's old set of clubs ... Patty Berg irons with steel shafts PAINTED TO LOOK LIKE HICKORY!  And I had a great time trying to hit shots with those clubs.  But, then, I still have a Cleveland Classic 3-wood and a Ping 1-iron in my everyday set, and I love to pull out either of them for precisely the same reason.

I've played with hickory a handful of times, and every time, it's been a blast.  The last time was at Kingarrock for the World Forum of Golf Course Architects at St. Andrews, a couple of winters ago.  I didn't win the thing, but I outplayed my golfing partners, including my associate Eric Iverson who is a much better player than I am.  But I'm more adaptable. 

I've received three or four clubs as gifts from a friend who's an avid hickory player ... not enough to make a set yet.  Even if I had a complete set, I don't know that I would play them that often, as it's in my professional interest to try to stay in touch with the modern game.  However, an occasional round with hickory is the best reminder that we should also seek to retain some of the shotmaking elements of the game that the modern equipment makers are trying to render obsolete.

[Mike Policano]

Tom,

I believe the steel painted to look like hickory clubs were called pyratone clubs. Apparently, when the R&A approved steel shafts, some three to five years after the USGA, golfers started to move to steel shafts.  For some reason, there was an effort to make the steel look like hickory by painting them at the end of the manufacturing process. At Ridgewood CC in NJ, we have a set of pyratones owned by our long time pro and first president of the PGA , George Jacobus.

Cheers, Mike  

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:

Thanks for a new term.

Are those clubs rare?  I never really thought about it much, just saved them because they were my mom's.  It's not a whole set of them, just 2-3 clubs in a mis-matched set.  Must be where I got my tastes in matched sets ... and my frugality.

[Tim Martin]

We had a guy playing behind us today who was by himself and sporting a beautiful set of hickories that he told me he had made in St. Andrews and said he paid about $1,800 for the set. We invited him to join us to play the 9th hole which is par 3 over water and he extricated a mid mashie that had the appearance of a butter knife and he said was similar in loft to a 4 iron. An old blade 1 iron would look like a 7 iron compared to this thing. With a buttery swing he made solid contact and hit it about 175 yds onto the green with a low compression modern ball. All I can say is that I was fascinated and I peppered him with questions as we walked to the green. He told me that he is hooked and that there is no turning back. Pretty cool.

[Tim Martin]

As an aside I saw Mike Policano with plus fours,tie and all the garb playing hickories this past summer at Paramount CC on a 95 degree day. Beyond sharp without a bead of sweat on him.

[Mike Policano]

Tom, they are rare because the pyratone period didn't last long.  However, they are not sought after and not particularly valuable.

Tim, the St. Andrews Golf Co. makes reproduction clubs based on actual models from the 1920's. In the US, Tad Moore and Mike Just of Louisville make reproductions which are approved by the Society of Hickory Golfers for tournament play in the US.    

[Tim Martin]

Tom, they are rare because the pyratone period didn't last long.  However, they are not sought after and not particularly valuable.

Tim, the St. Andrews Golf Co. makes reproduction clubs based on actual models from the 1920's. In the US, Tad Moore and Mike Just of Louisville make reproductions which are approved by the Society of Hickory Golfers for tournament play in the US.    

Mike-I asked him about the specs and he said that they were modeled after a set that Bobby Jones used in the 1920`s. Does that sound right?

[Mike Policano]

Tim,

Yes, that is right. They have at least one set that is a commemorstive Bobby Jones set. The clubs are stunning. One of my friends has a set that came witht 18 clubs I believe.

And yes, i don't sweat, although I went with slacks that day which was quite hot. If you want to try hickories next year, Tim can provide you a trial set. Let me know. 

Cheers, Mike

[RSLivingston_III]

Just as an FYI; Pyratone was a coating process most commonly used on early steel shafts but in some rare and presumably expensive cases, was done to protective coat wood shsfts.
Many of the coated steel shafts are not done with the Pyratone process and are simply painted, but all coated shafts are generically referred to as pyratone shafts.
In the collecting and playing communitees there is no interest in them, so they lack any value.

[Ken Moum]

Ken,
You can play whatever ball you want to, unless you are participating in an event that specifies a particular ball.

Of course, but I actually was interested in your opinion about how close the modern balls are to the ones played by top player prior to the rules change in 1935.

I know they are more durable and consistent, but given the specs of the balls played by Jones in 1930, do you think the new balls are significantly longer?

K

[RSLivingston_III]

Ken,
You can play whatever ball you want to, unless you are participating in an event that specifies a particular ball.

Of course, but I actually was interested in your opinion about how close the modern balls are to the ones played by top player prior to the rules change in 1935.

I know they are more durable and consistent, but given the specs of the balls played by Jones in 1930, do you think the new balls are significantly longer?

K

Ken,
I don't think you mean 1935.
The periods we are most concerned with are in the decade following WWI and then again in the early part of the 1920s, following the first ball rules.
The magazines of the era will typically have hole descriptions that include a recommendation for the club. I recommend going out and trying to recreate the shots so that you can see for yourself. I have found an iron shot into a 3 par to be the best test for a comparison.

It is unfortunate the books on balls don't deal with this subject, but there purpose is more about 'valuation'.