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Niall C

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Restorations in the UK
« on: November 08, 2011, 01:53:24 PM »
Are there any ?

I was reading the other thread about best firms for restorations and noted that pretty welll all the comment was about american work and largely american architects. I know Hawtree has had a couple of gigs restoring some Colt courses but from memory those courses are on the other side of the pond and might not fit Ally's definition of Restoration in any case, I don't know.

I'm sure there probably are some but for whatever reason here in the UK we seem to have a cavalier attitude towards our architectural heritage, at least as far as golf courses are concerned. Perhaps that's a good thing or we would all still be playing on perfectly flat and square greens.

Interested to hear others thoughts on why there aren't more restorations in the UK and whether indeed that is a bad thing.

Niall

Tom_Doak

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Re: Restorations in the UK
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2011, 02:42:17 PM »
There aren't many restorations in the UK because architects are not put on the same pedestal.  Nearly all of the top older courses are the result of two or three evolutions under different architects reacting to changes in the game and in equipment -- a lot of them were first designed for the gutty ball! -- instead of preserving the work of one designer.

The only really good candidate I can think of for a restoration there is the pre-war course at Prince's.  It was evidently quite something, and hosted an Open championship, whereas the post-war 27-hole version has never garnered the same sort of attention or respect. 

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Restorations in the UK
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2011, 02:52:43 PM »
Tom

Undoubtedly right about quite a number of our top courses that were originally designed or laid out pre golden age. However I wonder if there aren't a number of Colt, MacKenzie, Braid, Simpson or whoever courses that could do with the feature pond being filled in or the recently added pine plantation removed.

Even less well known architects deserve some more respect than the attentions that some golf club committees have given them IMO. However thats individual cases. Where would we be if previous generations felt the need to preserve for all time existing designs ?

Niall

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Restorations in the UK
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2011, 02:54:31 PM »
As Tom said, there aren't many... and there aren't that many candidates crying out for any major scale restorations...

There are many that could do with minor types of restoration and you are seeing this especially in the heathlands... Here, tree clearing and some rebunkering work is helping to get back the feel of some of these courses as they were originally designed... But again, these often aren't strict restorations because it's more about recreating a style rather than exactly the same features...

Peter Pallotta

Re: Restorations in the UK
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2011, 03:10:49 PM »
Niall - I wonder: do you envision/can you imagine a boom-time for restorations in the UK in the coming years?  As you have all noted already, the UK seems still and certainly has been less 'precious' about architectural attribution/design purity than the United States.  But as more and more clubs think of ways to generate/maintain revenue, might a rationale present itself ever more clearly to UK clubs for restoring -- and promoting -- the fine old courses and their architectural pedigree?

Peter

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Restorations in the UK
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2011, 04:27:55 PM »
UK golfers seem to really love trees. Tree removal is very hard to get past the committee, the committee worry it will not be popular and the members leave. I have had a tough time trying to get some to remove conifers (lleylandii) and Italian Poplar, often there are better views or better trees behind. Some understand but many dont. It would be a brave move by a Sunningdale to axe the pine.

TD is right when he talks of collaboration on most UK courses and the lack of knowing even who designed their course. Hardly any are as they were originally and most cant be restored in the true sense.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Restorations in the UK
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2011, 05:03:53 PM »
Tom post war there was plenty of restoration as many courses were neglected or war damaged. Deal and Princes had a rough time especially Princes. Fortunately at Deal the greens were protected but the fairways were not. The 18" wide concrete path running from the first tee along the side of 17, 16 & 15 was a cycle path built to allow the gunners to get to their positions quickly.

Being sheltered beaches and flat inland the East Kent coast was a prime landing spot in the event of invasion.
Cave Nil Vino

James Boon

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Re: Restorations in the UK
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2011, 05:32:57 PM »
Niall,

The only real ones I'm aware of are Frank Pont's work at Tandridge GC:
http://www.infinitevarietygolf.com/Pages/English/news1.html
and Creative Golf Design at Alwoodley and Moortown,
http://www.creativegolfdesign.com/current-projects.html
though Moortown is the only one I've seen in person.

As has been said already, I'm often amazed at how few people know about the history of their club and its designer in this country. I've been looked at rather odd having only been a member at Notts for a year, when I start talking to a long standing member and they've no real idea who Willie Park or Tom Williamson are, or are amazed that I already know when the course opened or what year the new holes came into play? But then maybe that is just the territory for golf geeks ::)

Cheers,

James

2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Restorations in the UK
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2011, 07:20:46 PM »

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Restorations in the UK
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2011, 03:42:03 AM »
Tom post war there was plenty of restoration as many courses were neglected or war damaged. Deal and Princes had a rough time especially Princes. Fortunately at Deal the greens were protected but the fairways were not. The 18" wide concrete path running from the first tee along the side of 17, 16 & 15 was a cycle path built to allow the gunners to get to their positions quickly.

Being sheltered beaches and flat inland the East Kent coast was a prime landing spot in the event of invasion.

Mark C,

I don't think that most of those cases post-war were restorations... Unless I'm mistaken, they were usually redesigns (think Turnberry and Princes)...

Peter,

There could be a market for restoration in the future but for clubs to see any potential in it, there's got to be a step change in the UK's golfing culture of not caring about great golf course architects of 80 years ago... Like the difference between UK and US culture in many walks of life, the British tend to spend far less time hanging things on a heritage...

Clubs would see no benefit until people actually want to play Colt or MacKenzie courses (incidentally MacKenzie is far more marketable than Colt because of Augusta and that he's faux Scottish... Old Tom is more marketable than Colt).

Also, as Tom D states, British courses spent far more time evolving than did their American cousins... You had most of your great courses created in the golden age... Ours started before and were mainly redesigned through the golden age... Convincing people to restore to a point that isn't the original becomes even more difficult...

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Restorations in the UK
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2011, 04:04:54 AM »
I am not aware of a single REAL restoration project in the UK, nor do I know of one in the past.  The closest I know of is at a few heathland courses (I wish Beau Desert would get on board), but as pointed out earlier, this is more about capturing the feel of the original course (and improving agronomics) more than about restoration.  I too would say Princes is begging for a proper restoration.  While I like the Dunes/Shore nines at Princes, the decision to build 27 holes after the war may be one of the worst EVER made in golf design.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Restorations in the UK
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2011, 05:38:37 AM »
Most redesign work in the UK is to provide greater length, in response to health and safety concerns and to deal with drainage or similar issues. There is a strong movement to plant trees to separate fairways driven both by the fear of a big legal claim and in an effort to provide passageways for small birds and mammals, so many farmers having torn down hedgerows and with the noticeable increase in birds of prey.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Restorations in the UK
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2011, 02:14:38 PM »
Looking at the responses I think most are agreed that very little pure restoration work goes on in the UK, the question then is that a good thing ? Clearly there will be individual cases where maybe restoration was the thing to do but overall I think a movement comprising just restoration would be too limiting. Instead I would really like to see a raising of general awareness of design issues, and an understanding that as in other walks of life professional advice should be routinely sought. Too much damage is done by enthuisastic amateurs thinking they know best.

As to Peter's question about whether restoration, or indeed renovation, could become all the rage I think possibly it could be if the governing bodies took it seriously as an issue. Clubs are struggling for members, therefore the Scottish Golf Union/English Golf Union etc should be advising them how to keep their membership up. One way is to improve their course. How about encouraging the removal of trees from courses for agronomy reasons as well as golfing reasons ? If that sort of advice comes from the governing bodies it would strike home a lot better than a bunch of individual gca's cold calling clubs trying to get them interested IMO.

Niall 

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Restorations in the UK
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2011, 03:53:35 PM »
Niall - I would give tree removal as a way of retaining members a less than 0.1% chance of success. UK clubs have spent the last 40-50 years of planting and many are now mature, telling them to now chop them down will be about as popular as a fart in a space suit.
Look at google earth aerials, its pretty clear, trees left and right is what people want. Narrow fairways encourage straight hitting. Wide fairways being good is very much the minor opinion, most of our UK courses are quite tight on acreage and trees can provide safety.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Restorations in the UK
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2011, 06:32:41 PM »

Sorry Adrian but burn the blood trees on a golf course. They grow uncontrolled, drink vast amounts of water pulling it out of the fairways, in droughts help destroy the ground with large cracks, their leaves fall and branches break in wind. They have no design control and will be more of a problem than benefit to the club.

Trees should not be on the fairway or rough due to their unfriendly nature to both land and Green Keepers. There are far better and more easily controllable hazards available IMHO.

I do like trees but not on a course, in my defence I cite Beauport Park Golf Club near Hastings, their web site is  http://www.beauportparkgolf.co.uk/pages.php/index.html



Tree for woods, gardens but not golf courses.

Melvyn


Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Restorations in the UK
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2011, 03:45:12 AM »
Niall - I would give tree removal as a way of retaining members a less than 0.1% chance of success. UK clubs have spent the last 40-50 years of planting and many are now mature, telling them to now chop them down will be about as popular as a fart in a space suit.
Look at google earth aerials, its pretty clear, trees left and right is what people want. Narrow fairways encourage straight hitting. Wide fairways being good is very much the minor opinion, most of our UK courses are quite tight on acreage and trees can provide safety.

I think Adrian is right here though I do notice it changing... In Britain & Ireland we love our trees... The main hope starts with a named architect course and a committee (or one committee member) that respects the name of that architect and is interested enough to look at old photos and how the course used to look... Once you have that you have a chance... But the members will rebel so if it needs an AGM to give the go-a-head then chances are low... Once the work gets done of course the members think it's great...

I have been walked round countless courses these past few years with the main boast being the extent of the tree planting scheme going on... All new works seem to be "buy more trees"... As mentioned on the other thread though, I've seen Cork and Carlow remove trees this year (the only 2 in Ireland as far as I know) and it is noticeable these courses have a definite history (MacKenzie and Simpson respectively)...

I've written an article on that subject for next month's Golf Digest Ireland...

If there is one bunker that I've set my sights on restoring, it is on the 18th at Ballybunion.... This was called the greatest cross-hazard in the game (paraphrasing) by Tom Simpson and having found an old 1960 aerial of the course, what a difference!


Paul_Turner

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Re: Restorations in the UK
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2011, 07:56:58 AM »
The whole tree issue and golf in the Isles is weird.  There would be an outcry if someone started planting tracts of trees on the Langdale Pikes.  The public appreciates open vistas on a hike but don't care when it comes to golf. (Unlike on the East coast here where all you see are bloody trees on a hike!)

Sunn New is restoring 3 lost holes on the New.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Restorations in the UK
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2011, 08:30:23 AM »
Paul,

I just posted this on the thread related to Sherwood Forest GC...
Tom,

I know at Notts that a lot of the tree clearance is related to the heathland restoration, rather than any architectural merit in returning the course to its original state, but then the two do go hand in hand on the heathland courses, think Walton Heath?

I also know, that virtually all long standing members I've talked to really don't like the tree clearance and would rather the tree lined holes that they have lost. This could well be that when they joined many years ago it was already tree lined and so that how they have always known it, rather than any great misunderstanding of the architectural, historical or ecological merits of tree clearance?


Maybe this goes some way to explaining the attitude???

Adrian,

You mention that trees can provide safety? I know a lot of courses plant trees to separate holes with one eye on the safety angle.

However, I've had plenty of experiences walking down tree lined fairways when a ball comes flying nearby without ever hearing a shout of "FORE!". I'm guessing that this is because people can't see me because of the trees? I therefore suspect that if the trees weren't there and it was all open, I would have been seen and a warning shout could have been given? Most recently this happened at Beau Desert, so we aren't talking small trees.

Do you think this would be a worthy argument for tree removal, between fairways at the very least?

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Paul_Turner

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Re: Restorations in the UK
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2011, 09:17:02 AM »
James

Yes and very few of the members are now old enough to remember when there were hardly any trees. For many of the old established clubs it was the 1950s and 60s when the committees started going berserk with planting.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Restorations in the UK
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2011, 12:19:21 PM »
Boony - They say trees are 90% air, I kinda dispute that, golf balls seem to hit wood most times to me and I guess multiple branches, multiple trees mean they can defend quite well. It depends on the species of course and some of the nastier trees for a golf course ie the LLeylandii types do form good protection, not much goes through those buggers. I do agree sometimes vision is better and I think its very much a case for each situation is different. On the whole, yes they can provide protection and safety.

Golf courses are different, some courses do not require trees and some rely on them for their beauty, it is not a one size fits all and whilst I wont be advocating a coniferous planting scheme on TOC remember in the mid sixtures they planted a lot of pine trees on the course so some committee at that time thought it was the best thing to do, fortunately the pines were too large to transplant and they did not survive the summer.....had they well who knows.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Restorations in the UK
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2011, 01:52:42 PM »
Adrian

I think tree removal is an example of one area of design that the governing bodies could make inroads on if they themselves were sold on it. Firstly there are very good reasons to remove them eg. agronomy, playability, loss of strategy etc., and secondly the weight of the SGU or EGU promoting the scheme will get the attention. A couple of case studies showing the benefits, results in some clubs going for it and then it spreads. Thats how it works.

How do you get the governing bodies to do that ? Get EIGCA or whatever its called to make official representation. Basically badger them to do it. I'm not saying its easy but a concerted approach at high level would in my opinion work. Its the sort of thing I would want my governing body to be doing if I were a GCA.

Niall 

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Restorations in the UK
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2011, 02:13:39 PM »
Niall - I am not sure I see things as black and white as that. There is no doubt that trees too close to greens can cause turf problems, they can around tees as well however you need trees to be intimate in some situations, so its not a blanket rule and sometimes there needs to be compromise in the positioning. Some golf courses WOULD NOT benifit from tree removal. Some good golf courses are good because of the trees, a lot of the golfers like trees, it is the major opinion so I dont really think you will get the backing from the major bodies. That aside, there are areas on most 'treed' courses that will benifit from the chop.
We have argued with authorities that when we build new golf courses we will plant 15,000 trees which will benifit ecology and the immense benifits to birds, bees, animals, air......How do we now say "actually we want to chop them down".
I think the right trees need to be planted in the right situations, I have never bothered with tree grants because the authorities control too much the specie, you get the trees cheaper but you often get too many with too large leaves, you dont get much problem with a scotch pine or a silver birch, hawthorns and scrubbier stuff are ok, even oaks and beeches dont cause too much fuss.
Many clubs have had bad planting schemes, designed by a club member whose tree intrest has perhaps not understood things and the very worst has been the planting of clonic trees like the fast growing poplars and everygreens that grow 3 feet per year, if they are treated as nurse crops with a decent oak or something behind and then removed when the main tree is 15 feet then it would all be fine.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Restorations in the UK
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2011, 02:33:14 PM »
Adrian

Agreed, its not black and white, and tree removal was an example I used to show how clubs could benefit from proper advice which takes me back to where I started. I'm simply not convinced that the majority of clubs take proper advice when altering a course and do so more out of the Committee of the times desire to make their mark and trees are supposedly an easy one to do.

Sticking with the question of trees as the example, the best advice might actually be not to remove trees but to plant some, so I agree with you there but if all clubs got expert advice I would be fairly confident that overall more trees would come down than be planted. Not that it matters in the balance, the point is trees would be planted (or not) appropriately. The same approach applies for other issues but thats one way of getting proper advice out there.

I'm no expert but I've seen trees planted on a par 5 to create a slalom or chicane effect and its perfectly obvious that when the trees mature the golfer is going to have no shot at all from most of the fairway and at best a 5 or 10 yard corridor to play through from the optimum approach angle. Absolute nonsense and I'm sure we've all seen such glaring examples. Anyway, apologies for the rant.

Niall

Ian Andrew

Re: Restorations in the UK
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2011, 05:12:13 PM »
For perspective, I can't think of a single restoration in Canada up until 20 years ago.
It took a major effort at a very significant club to get everyone to consider the approach as an alternative to renovation.
The history of architecture is now a big deal in this country.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Restorations in the UK
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2011, 09:28:05 PM »
This review from a Colt course Belfairs/Southend basically sums up the average view in UK.   

http://www.southendgolfclub.co.uk/p/course.html

Trees good and beautiful (Poplars). 

Having to land a ball short of the green bad.  Lush good. 

Bunker in the middle of the fairway bad.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

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