[Dean Stokes]

Unless I am completely unaware, and I have been looking at photographs on this site for 4 years now, why have no architects designed a links/seaside course in the US that looks something like the links in Scotland, England and Ireland? By that I mean with the sod walled bunkers that are shaved all around to swallow up golf balls both on drives and approach shots. Greens that are not massively contoured but that fall off into deep bunkers and shaved swailes....

If there is can someone post pics....if not do the archies out there think this will ever be done or is that style of course not going to be built again? Thanks.
ps. I am looking at a photo of the 9th green at Lytham as an example but i cannot attach it to this thread to see.

[jeffwarne]

I'm told people don't like it if they can't get their ball within 20 feet from such.....

[Dean Stokes]

I'm told people don't like it if they can't get their ball within 20 feet from such.....

hijacking threads with other threads is not permitted on this site carry on!

[Norbert P]

It's partly a drainage issue.  Ball-collective bunkers generally collect water, too, which is not good for maintenance and golf when varied US soils don't usually percolate like Scottish linksland soils.

[Dean Stokes]

Interesting. I was wondering this question while at Bandon the other week.....it would seem perfect for one of the architects to go with the deep sod walled bunkers......which personally I think look much better than blow out bunkers that have become all the rage!

[Tom_Doak]

Interesting. I was wondering this question while at Bandon the other week.....it would seem perfect for one of the architects to go with the deep sod walled bunkers......which personally I think look much better than blow out bunkers that have become all the rage!

Dean:

There are a handful of sod-walled bunkers at Bandon Dunes and a handful at Old Macdonald.  There aren't more because Mr. Keiser believes the retail golfer doesn't like getting into a bunker they can't get out of ... sort of the extension of your argument about fairness, as applied to bunkers.  We would have built more, if we were allowed to.

However, there is another reason also, and it's that sod walls have to be rebuilt every 3-4 years.  The links courses all do it on a rotating basis, rebuilding 25% of their bunkers every winter season ... it's quite an expensive proposition, a lot of sod and a lot of hand labor.  In the long run, it's probably a wash cost-wise compared to dealing with the sand erosion they have in Bandon and out in the sand hills region trying to maintain the "blowout" style, but so far every client I've had in those regions preferred the blowout style and the headaches associated with it.

[Dean Stokes]

I see Tom.....do you forsee such a course ever being built, or you building a course that only has sod walls bunkers? I have always thought they look wonderful. I will never forget standing behind the 18th tee at Troon when Greg Norman teed off.....i believe the year Calcavechia won it......the hole just looked so good framed by the bunkering.....the tee box was at eye level and this thing took off like a rocket with a slight fade....a memory that will stick with me for life! I am just surprised such a course has never been built in the US. Thanks.

[Joel_Stewart]

Greg Norman tried building the grass sod bunkers when he built the Medalist in Florida but abandoned it a few years later.  I agree it probably because of the cost, the fact they do retain water, they are hard to play out of and they are hard to maintain.  

I'm not sure how they really work with other grasses other then fescue?

[Tom_Doak]

I see Tom.....do you forsee such a course ever being built, or you building a course that only has sod walls bunkers? I have always thought they look wonderful. I will never forget standing behind the 18th tee at Troon when Greg Norman teed off.....i believe the year Calcavechia won it......the hole just looked so good framed by the bunkering.....the tee box was at eye level and this thing took off like a rocket with a slight fade....a memory that will stick with me for life! I am just surprised such a course has never been built in the US. Thanks.

Dean:

I have built a course with mostly sod wall bunkers ... The Renaissance Club, in Scotland.  They have a superintendent in charge whose crew had years of experience in sod wall construction at Muirfield, Gullane and the other local courses, so it made sense for them to go in that direction.

I'd love to do a course in the U.S. that had the same bunkering style, but I have yet to meet the client who wants it.  And, as Joel points out, it doesn't work nearly as well with other grasses as it does with fescue [which rots more slowly] ... so it would have to be a client in a cool northern climate where fescue fairways were also possible. 

[Bill Gayne]

I think Newport Country Cliub has many of the features that you are looking for (haven't been there). I looked under courses by country and unfortunately there is not a revirew. Maybe someone with first hand knowledge can add more detail.

[Sean_A]

Dean

There does seem to be a fundamental reason(s) for sod wall bunkers.  I know they help stop erosion and keep sand where it is meant to be (if built properly in relation to the wind).  The question is why did it become important to stop erosion?  It could be sheer amount of play would eventually cause there to be more sand than fairway/green on a course.  When I look at pix of proper blowouts in the States, they seem to be in "off course" areas where there is plenty of room for bunker dynamics to occur and little worry of sand covering playing areas.  It also seems to me that bunkers more tight to playing lines or with little space to allow sand splash are more controlled using long grass or whatever to contain sand.  One advantage these "natural" bunkers have is more seem to visually block sight lines, while with pots this is less the case (many are very low lying).  I would also say they are usually easier to see compared to pots - which for many designers/owners is a big issue.  I personally don't mind a combo of the two and even RR tie faces chucked in. Choosing which would depend on where the bunker is, which way is the prevailing wind and what sort of aesthetic is sought after.  But I do admit to loving pots, the low lying buggers that just look like an indistinctive black area from a distance always strike me as very menacing.

Ciao  

[Ally Mcintosh]

Dean,

On links courses, sod bunkers tend to have to be rebuilt every 5 to 7 years (3 to 4 years that Tom states is high end) and can get by with less if the sod isn't left exposed and grass is let grow on the face... Benefits are that they stop erosion and sand blow and take little day to day maintenance...

You have to remember that sod wall bunkers aren't the "original" style on British links courses either...

[Dean Stokes]

Thank you for the new knowledge.......i am more intrigued with the look of them......we all have a certain golf course/courses that fit our eye and that we prefer.....for me the way the land just 'rolls' around them, the circular nature of the traps and the shaved turf is just pleasing on the eye.....especially when the sun drops in the late evening.

[Ian Andrew]

In Canada, one of the big headaches is mice and voles.
Through the season they tend to tunnel into the face of the bunker and break down the integrity of the "sod".
They destroy the entire face if you get any snow cover.

[Niall C]

Dean,

On links courses, sod bunkers tend to have to be rebuilt every 5 to 7 years (3 to 4 years that Tom states is high end) and can get by with less if the sod isn't left exposed and grass is let grow on the face... Benefits are that they stop erosion and sand blow and take little day to day maintenance...

You have to remember that sod wall bunkers aren't the "original" style on British links courses either...

Ally

I was about to suggest that for "average" links as opposed to the high end ones, that the period might be more like ten years but you are better placed than me to comment. I would suggest however that sod walled bunkers were the standard on parkland courses as well when I was growing up and it is only in the last 10 to 15 years I would guess that parkland layouts have converted to a more grass faced style. Whether thats through ease of maitenance or cheaper to build, I don't know, but I definitely prefer the sod wall look. Also I'm sure on inland courses these sod wall bunkers lasted "forever".

Niall

[Melvyn Morrow]

Ally

Hell Bunker TOC is a sod walled bunker and a photo exist from 1896 showing that part of the bunker has been maintained this way. I was under the impression that sod wall was the product of Fife courses from the 19th Century onwards.



Melvyn

[Tom_Doak]

Dean,

On links courses, sod bunkers tend to have to be rebuilt every 5 to 7 years (3 to 4 years that Tom states is high end) and can get by with less if the sod isn't left exposed and grass is let grow on the face... Benefits are that they stop erosion and sand blow and take little day to day maintenance...

You have to remember that sod wall bunkers aren't the "original" style on British links courses either...

Ally

I was about to suggest that for "average" links as opposed to the high end ones, that the period might be more like ten years but you are better placed than me to comment. I would suggest however that sod walled bunkers were the standard on parkland courses as well when I was growing up and it is only in the last 10 to 15 years I would guess that parkland layouts have converted to a more grass faced style. Whether thats through ease of maitenance or cheaper to build, I don't know, but I definitely prefer the sod wall look. Also I'm sure on inland courses these sod wall bunkers lasted "forever".

Niall

Niall:

There is no way sod walls last forever.  I've built a fair number of them over the years and watched them deteriorate.  When the faces face south, they tend to burn up, and all of them rot from the back over time.

It seems to me from observation that they rot faster when you are watering them often, or when snow is a factor -- which is why American courses have worse problems with them.  I suppose on an older UK course that doesn't irrigate much at all, they would last much longer.

[Tom_Doak]

Melvyn:

That's a great picture of Hell ... what passes for it now suffers from a damned lack of imagination.

Notice how back then only a portion of the bunker was sod-faced.

Is your picture from Horace Hutchinson's book?  I was thumbing through that book a year ago and noticing how few bunkers at the time of publishing were actually sod-walled.

[Niall C]

Tom

Thats why I had forever in inverted commas. They do indeed breakdown but I suggest the less plush links didn't used to resod their bunkers nearly as often as fives years. I've played out of some really degraded bunkers in my time, and let me tell you they were usually a good bit more degraded after I had been in them ! Also in the same way that Augusta being on TV has lead to so many clubs planting bloody azealas or whatever, I'm sure the pristine look of Open course bunkers every July has encouraged "average" links to resod more often.

Relatively speaking though I'm sure sod wall bunkers on inland courses lasted a lot longer due to the building material. For instance, I would think the Carrick has been up and running for more than 5 years now and even on a high end course like that I doubt they have done much work to the bunker faces. Of course could be talking bolloks but I don't think so.

Niall

[Ben Sims]

I can't see how a course full of stacked sod bunkers would be economical.  Especially in the American golf climate.  The process is intensive and extremely subject to quality of sod/work issues. 

Here's a thread with some before/during/after photos (around post 36) of some sod bunker work at Pram Breach in NZ.  In my mind it tells the story of why you don't see more of them.  Seems to be much easier to dig a hole and hyroseed the edge of it! 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39086.35.html

[Niall C]

Ben

Interesting thread, and I note I was on that one as well talking rubbish. Let me ask you this though, looking at the before and afters, if that bunker was originally a sod wall bunker, how long do you think it took to get into the state it was in just before being rebuilt ? Also, how much maintenance do you think it got over the years ?

Now compare that to a grass faced bunker which still has to be shaped, and how much routine work does that get ?

Niall

[Ben Sims]

Ben

Interesting thread, and I note I was on that one as well talking rubbish. Let me ask you this though, looking at the before and afters, if that bunker was originally a sod wall bunker, how long do you think it took to get into the state it was in just before being rebuilt ? Also, how much maintenance do you think it got over the years ?

Now compare that to a grass faced bunker which still has to be shaped, and how much routine work does that get ?

Niall

Niall,

I'm not familiar with the climactic issues that they deal with down at Paraparaumu.  I'm also not well versed on their soil composition and grassing schemes.  So any guess as to the timing of rebuild and maintenance inputs over the years is speculatory at best.  I see your point though.  I would gather to say that a blowout bunker or grass faced bunker (and especially flashed bunkers) require more routine maintenance than a sod walled bunker. 

But my argument centers around the initial cost to build a course full of sod-walled bunkers and how intensive the maintenance would be once it was required.  I prefer to drink my beer little by little, rather than in huge gulps. 

[Niall C]

Ben

I would guess someone on here probably knows the answer. However I think it interesting that when we are largely promoting firm and fast courses and brown grass being good, in the name of being sustainable as much as playability, maybe we should also be thinking do we need to have revetted bunkers looking pristine ? Could we not let them go on a few years more before rebuilding ?

As I often say about links courses in particular and courses in general, I do like them to be a bit scruffy round the edges but good where it matters and that ain't necessarily on the bunker face.

Niall

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

Yes it was from HH book of 1896.

As for the bunkers, I have seen old photos too and as I believe they are a Fife feature used as you can see by OTM and his team like Charlie Hunter. As you know many of TOC bunkers were once much deeper and had to be filled in with sand due to about 30cm of water found in them most days. The shallower bunkers needed less support and if you notice Hell Bunker has only sods on one face.

Was this an Allan Roberson design, no I believe not as he seems to have done little to the bunkers, the old Road Hole bunker of the 19th Century was rather toothless compared to the one today. There was some talk many years ago that it may have originated south of St Andrews somewhere in the region of Crail/Leven, but I have nothing concrete to confirm that apart from locals talking about in in the 1970’s. 

If you have any more info I would be interested, until then I will continue in the belief that its a Fife feature.

Melvyn

[Dean Stokes]

Ben, thanks for posting the link with the before/after pictures. The look of the 'after' pictures just wants to make me go and tee it up. To my eye those bukers just look perfect. Obviously they take a lot of work to build but isnt it just worth it when you see how they frame the green complex. Awesome. Thanks.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()