Re: Aggregate Course Competition WINNERS ON POST 137!!!

[Mac Plumart]

FYI...the "celebrity" judge called me today and said, "If you ain't closin' with Inverness, you are wrong!!"

 

[Tom_Doak]

Okay, I completed my entry yesterday while waiting for an oil change -- but then posted it on the OTHER 6,500 yard course thread.  D'oh!

Here it is again:


#1  341 yds par 4   Old Macdonald
#2  402 yds par 4   Stone Eagle
#3  499 yds par 5   Pacific Dunes

#4  297 yds par 4   Barnbougle Dunes
#5  230 yds par 3   Dismal River II
#6  316 yds par 4   Pacific Dunes

#7  122 yds par 3   Barnbougle Dunes
#8  480 yds par 4   The Renaissance Club [current 11th hole, will become #8 when new holes open]
#9  430 yds par 4   Tumble Creek

OUT  3,117 yds  par 35

#10  185 yds par 3  Streamsong (Blue)
#11  435 yds par 4   Lost Dunes
#12  370 yds par 4   Ballyneal

#13  206 yds par 3   Barnbougle Dunes
#14  265 yds par 4   Bay of Dreams
#15  650 yds par 5   Cape Kidnappers

#16  338 yds par 4   Pacific Dunes
#17  470 yds par 4   Ballyneal
#18  458 yds par 4   Stonewall (Old)

IN  3,377 yds par 35

TOTAL  6,494 yds par 70

[James Boon]

As I'm obviously more familiar with the UK courses, both Mark's and also Sean's courses look excellent fun. Interesting to see that the courses put together by those either from or more familiar with the UK courses, seem to be closer to 6,000 rather than 6,500 but that doesn't necessarily mean anything I suppose... 

With such a vast number of holes to choose from, I wasn't sure where to start. Then I came up with the idea of using one of my favourite shorter courses as a template. Therefore, in theory (well roughly anyway) the holes below all follow the rough yardage or principles of the layout at MacKenzie's Cavendish GC. This also means I've tried to keep it below 6,000 yards but still make it a tough test, much as is the case at Cavendish:

1. 380 yard par 4, Burnham & Berrow
2. 340 yard par 4, Blairgowrie (Wee)
3. 305 yard par 4, Castle Stuart
4. 171 yard par 3, Swinley Forest
5. 385 yard par 4, Nairn
6. 323 yard par 4, Royal Cinque Ports
7. 351 yard par 4, Pennard
8. 434 yard par 4, Royal Dornoch
9. 207 yard par 3, Brancepeth Castle

2,896 yards par 34

10. 413 yard par 4, Northamptonshire County
11. 444 yard par 4, Hunstanton
12. 362 yard par 4, Brora
13. 241 yard par 3, Notts
14. 496 yard par 5, Cavendish
15. 190 yard par 3, North Berwick
16. 337 yard par 4, Royal West Norfolk
17. 163 yard par 3, Blairgowrie (Rosemount)
18. 437 yard par 4, Boat of Garten

3,083 yard par 35

5,979 yard par 69

Cheers,

James

[Howard Riefs]

#5  230 yds par 3   Dismal River II
.......
#10  185 yds par 3  Streamsong (Blue)

C'mon, Tom, you stopped short of including holes on courses that will open post-2013?  

[Tom_Doak]

#5  230 yds par 3   Dismal River II
.......
#10  185 yds par 3  Streamsong (Blue)

C'mon, Tom, you stopped short of including holes on courses that will open post-2013?  

Howard:

I only had 30 courses to choose from, and finding a good very-long par-3 at just the right hole number was tough to do.  I could have used the 5th at Black Forest or at Lost Dunes, but the hole in Nebraska is much more dramatic.  And I guess I could have used the 10th at The Rawls Course -- I haven't built many par threes for #10.

[Ben Sims]

#5  230 yds par 3   Dismal River II

Referee ruling?  I'll allow it.

(Come on, like you didn't think I was going to let a hole from the first course I've ever worked on in?)

Howard Riefs challenge being failed, he is being charged one par 3 and has no remaining challenges.  You must replace one of your par 3's with another of your choosing.   

--BREAK--

Happy Veterans Day folks!  As a consolation to my fellow vets and a recognition of some outstanding courses here, I am announcing that there will be a second and third place prize.  As of now, the judge has several favorites.  Though I wouldn't be testy with him, as he is in mourning today after running into a Beam-er last night.

First Place:  Foursome with me at my home club sometime in 2012.  Airfare and lodging not included!

Second Place:  A copy of our club's history.  Well, at least the first 100 years of it.

Third Place:  A polo shirt or hat of your chosen color from the club. 

[Howard Riefs]

Howard:

I only had 30 courses to choose from, and finding a good very-long par-3 at just the right hole number was tough to do.  I could have used the 5th at Black Forest or at Lost Dunes, but the hole in Nebraska is much more dramatic.  And I guess I could have used the 10th at The Rawls Course -- I haven't built many par threes for #10.

#5  230 yds par 3   Dismal River II

Referee ruling?  I'll allow it.

(Come on, like you didn't think I was going to let a hole from the first course I've ever worked on in?)

It wasn't a challenge. Just giving Tom a ribbing.  

Incidentally, the #5 at Dismal River II looks like a tremendous hole.

[Jud_T]

I think those of us who've used only courses of a certain region or type, or holes we've actually played, deserve special merit.  Any of us can dust off our Confidential Guides and cobble together something wonderful that we'll never see.

[Ben Sims]

Howard,

Just goofing around. 

Jud,

Quibbling!!  No joke, I am sure the judge will take those merits into consideration.  My personal opinion is that a course with a hole from ANGC with a hole from Royal Dornoch is missing the point of the exercise in some ways. 

[Michael Moore]

My personal opinion is that a course with a hole from ANGC with a hole from Royal Dornoch is missing the point of the exercise in some ways. 

Ben -

I am confused. Introducing this you hinted that variety was the spice of life.

Does the "aggregate of holes" mean that we are teleported from one hole to another, or that we get a giant pairs of scissors with which to make an uneven quilt of golf holes?

Where is your home course?

[Howard Riefs]

Howard,

Just goofing around.  

I know. Website forums and social networks need a sarcasm font. I remain anti-emoticon.

Separately, thank you to you and your fellow veterans for your service.  It's not said often enough beyond Veterans Day, and it should be.

[Eric Smith]

My personal opinion is that a course with a hole from ANGC with a hole from Royal Dornoch is missing the point of the exercise in some ways. 

What about Pat Ward-Thomas' "Elements of Greatness" essay and course in TWAG?

[Ben Sims]

Michael,

No confusion.  Variety can mean many things to many people.  But my own personal opinion is that there must be some sort of cohesiveness even if you're going to be teleported or "scissored." (as an aside, remember, I'm not the judge) This is--after all--a fun exercise and will be judged on a completely subjective basis.  

In regards to where my home club is, I don't want folks doing this exercise for a golf course.  It's modest and fun with a ton of history and is a  perfect getaway from "big golf."  So, if you'll indulge, my home course is in America.  Though if you searched my name, it wouldn't be hard to assume where it is.  

Eric,

What's TWAG?

[Eric Smith]

Ben,

Sorry, that's The World Atlas of Golf. In the older version there is a terrific essay along with what the author describes as 'a classic course' comprised of holes from all over the world. He had Augusta in the mix, along with Carnoustie. I was just wondering, by looking at the rules for this exercise, what point is one missing by using a hole from Augusta and Dornoch in their aggregate?

[Sven Nilsen]

My personal opinion is that a course with a hole from ANGC with a hole from Royal Dornoch is missing the point of the exercise in some ways. 

Really?  How so?  Are we not looking for challenge and shot-value in a course that doesn't rely solely on distance for its difficulty.  Royal Dornoch and ANGC seem to be full of holes of this nature.  I'd venture if you strip away the Master's eye-candy, you'd find two golf courses that are a little closer in "style" then one might first think.  Despite all of the renovations, there's still alot of the Jones/Dr. Mac original intent in ANGC.

[Garland Bayley]

Ben,

Sorry, that's The World Atlas of Golf. In the older version there is a terrific essay along with what the author describes as 'a classic course' comprised of holes from all over the world. He had Augusta in the mix, along with Carnoustie. I was just wondering, by looking at the rules for this exercise, what point is one missing by using a hole from Augusta and Dornoch in their aggregate?

I don't get that either. AGNC was built with links, in particular TOC as a model.

[Garland Bayley]

Howard,

Just goofing around. 

Jud,

Quibbling!!  No joke, I am sure the judge will take those merits into consideration.  My personal opinion is that a course with a hole from ANGC with a hole from Royal Dornoch is missing the point of the exercise in some ways. 

On the "best sub-6500 yard" course thread, Mike Young came up with an idea for a competition of the best par 70, sub 6500 yd course, formed as an aggregate of holes from different courses.

I have decided to hold a competition for just this purpose, but with a few tweeks. The winner of the competition will recieve a threesome of golf at my home club, hosted by me, redeemable sometime in the year 2012.  I will not make the judge publicly known (unless they wish to be), but he/she will be a member of this site with the type of knowledge needed to declare a winner.  I will also weigh in on the thread.

The rules:

1)  The course must be of a par between 68-70.  If you're going to use a hole with a different par for men and women or pros and members, the par generally accepted to be used the majority of the time will be used.  No quibbling if the judge says your hole is used more as a par 4 than a par 5, etc.

2)  The course must measure between 5500 and 6500 yards.  Holes used for your course must be measured from the tips, i.e., no using the middle tees to satisfy your yardage requirement. 

3)  The course must have at least one par 3, one par 4, and one par 5.  After that requirment is satisfied, then you are free to use any collection of holes you wish.  Just remember, variety is the spice of life.  Entries with a multitude of certain hole types will be looked upon unfavorably. 

4)  For purposes of organization, please try and keep holes that you choose in their respective position on their golf course.  This will ease in reading posts and judging the entries.  It will also test your knowledge of golf holes more thouroughly.  Exceptions will be granted based on a case-by-case basis and with good cause. 

Please have fun!

Ben,

"variety is the spice of life" Dornoch and ANGC certainly exhibit the variety characteristic.

[Bill McKinley]

2nd stab at it...

1. National - Par 4 330 - CB MacDonald
2. Pinehurst #2 - Par 4 - 410 - Donald Ross
3. Wannamoisett - Par 3 - 135 - Donald Ross
4. Bethpage Black - Par 5 - 522 - AW Tillinghast
5. Merion - Par 4 - 418 - Hugh Wilson
6. Seminole - Par 4 - 385 - Donald Ross
7. Shinnecock Hills - Par 3 - 185 - Toomey & Flynn
8. Crystal Downs - Par 5 - 550 - MacKenzie & Maxwell
9. Pine Valley - Par 4 - 425 - George Crump

Par 36 - 3360

10. Riviera - Par 4 - 315 - George Thomas
11. Pacific Dunes - Par 3 - 150 - Tom Doak
12. Cypress Point - Par 4 - 404 Alister MacKenzie
13. LACC (North) - Par 4 - 455 - George Thomas
14. Sand Hills - Par 5 - 508 - Coore & Crenshaw
15. Cypress Point - Par 3 - 130 - Alister MacKenzie
16. Bandon Dunes - Par 4 - 365 - David M. Kidd
17. Bandon Trails - Par 3 - 180 - Coore & Crenshaw
18. Olympic - Par 4 - 347 - Sam Whiting

Par - 34 - 2854

Par 70 - 6214

Front 9 is mainly East coast with a little Mid West in there.  Back 9 is West Coast with a little Sand Hills because you can't leave out Sand Hills.

[Ben Sims]

Eric, Sven, and Garland,

Well, it is my competition, so I can opine about what makes variety in any way I please to be honest.  But I don't want to sound petulant and run the risk "taking my ball and going home."  So I'll explain.

I think it is rudimentary and shallow to merely grab a coffee table book, look for a collection of the best holes that equate to the yardage and par, and sling 'em down on a list and say it represents why great golf courses don't have to be long.  I am not saying that has been done but it illustrates an extreme case of what I would prefer not to do myself. 

As an example.  Sure you could argue that having #11 at Pac Dunes, #12 at AGNC, and #17 at Sand Hills represents "variety."  This is partially true, based on climate and location.  Upon closer inspection, the yardages are very close and the shot values are very similiar.  In the same vein, having a hole like #12 at Augusta on the same course as a hole like #16 at Old Macdonald seems like an exercise of just making the math work. 

When I say variety, I am talking about lengths and shot requirements and not necessarily locale and style.  There needs to be some cohesiveness, right?

[Eric Smith]

Is it Rae's Creek, Ben? Is that the problem? Forget 12 if it is, what about 14 then? 14 at Augusta and 12 at St. Andrews. Can these two be on a cohesive aggregate course if the math adds up?

Or, forget those two...how about an aggregate course with a hole from a course in Port Lavaca, Texas and St. Andrews? Where (and how) is the distinction drawn?

Trying to understand...thanks.

[Ben Sims]

Is it Rae's Creek, Ben? Is that the problem? Forget 12 if it is, what about 14 then? 14 at Augusta and 12 at St. Andrews. Can these two be on a cohesive aggregate course if the math adds up?

Or, forget those two...how about an aggregate course with a hole from a course in Port Lavaca, Texas and St. Andrews? Where (and how) is the distinction drawn?

Trying to understand...thanks.

Eric,

I don't feel like your trying to understand anything.  I feel like you're trying to argue something.  If your trying to sell me on the similarities of ANGC and St. Andrews, it's not working.  This is a subjective exercise.  And these are my opinions.  I'm not the judge.  

You guys need to chill out, have fun, and stop critiquing everything I say. 

[Eric Smith]

That's your answer? I guess I'm finished then. Have fun!

[Ben Sims]

Is it Rae's Creek, Ben? Is that the problem? Forget 12 if it is, what about 14 then? 14 at Augusta and 12 at St. Andrews. Can these two be on a cohesive aggregate course if the math adds up?

Or, forget those two...how about an aggregate course with a hole from a course in Port Lavaca, Texas and St. Andrews? Where (and how) is the distinction drawn?

Trying to understand...thanks.

Is this what you call and constructive and respectful question?  This is supposed to be fun. 

[Eric Smith]

I would be happy to apologize...sorry for asking questions. No disrespect intended.

I did enjoy the coffee table reference.

[Ben Sims]

Eric,

Look, this is the internet.  When you rapid fire a post like the one I quoted a couple times, it doesn't come off as endearing or inquisitive.  It came off as defensive and upset.  My subjective opinion about this competition is that you have to be very mindful of the playability of each hole.  Aggregate courses are difficult because it's easy to simply make a list of great holes and add them up and hope you get less than 6500 yards.

What my intention in this project was, was to test all of our ability to create a testing and fun course, through aggregate means, that did have similarities and distinctions.  My goal was not to create a list of "GCA's best short course".

Does any of that make sense.  And yes, I just don't buy ANGC as "linksy"   

I feel like some folks are getting too wrapped around exact clarification of what I think makes a good aggregate.  It's just my opinion and this is designed as a fun exercise.