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JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2011, 12:21:26 PM »
It looks like the early plans gave a wide bearth to the swamp at the East end and the creek/pond in the center (other than direct crossings at 5 and 18)...I wonder why?

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2011, 12:53:53 PM »
For the crack researchers who want to study the original deeds, herewith one for your consideration and analysis.  It is between Eliza C. Peirce and George A. Crump and is dated October 30, 1912, exactly the same day Crump bought the Lumberton property.  Can anybody identify where this lot was and what exactly Crump purchased?  















« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 03:13:06 AM by Bryan Izatt »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2011, 01:12:51 PM »
Yeesh.  Personally, I am glad you gave us the Cliff notes version.  IMHO, very ingenuous of you!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2011, 04:47:23 PM »
David,

Re the train station - the stick routing topo and the Cold plan (just above) both mark where the station is, alongside the beginning of the 1st fairway.  Is that not sufficient proof for you of their location? 

Bryan, this is an odd question given your recent position about the nonexistence of the "POND" and the "DAM" despite that each is marked on the same two maps.  Has your understanding of the topo map changed?

The station may always have been in that exact same location, I am trying to nail down a definite location for earlier than 1913-1914 because I recall reading somewhere that the location of the station was moved at some early point.   Also, it looks like there was a setup for loading and unloading RR cars down by the 17th tee as late as the 1930's, and so I wonder if this might have been the remnants of an earlier station. 

Did you notice that the RR Right of Way briefly widens, but that that the widened portion does not line up with the station on those maps?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2011, 05:51:47 PM »

As a slight tangent from the Pine Valley deeds, George A. Crump, along with his sisters Helen and Elizabeth, and his brother Ralph inherited an almost 2 acre property from their mother upon her death, who in turn had inherited it upon her husband’s death.  The property was located near the intersection of Maple Terrace and Locust Streets in Merchantville, NJ.  On April 19, 1912 George A. Crump bought out his sisters’ (and their respective husbands) share of the family property for $1 (and no other valuable considerations).

Bryan,

Do you know when Crump sold this property? 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2011, 06:24:29 PM »
David,

FWIW, I took the widened RR ROW to be where they needed more width to build the large embankment across the valley, not as room for an extra siding or station.

If I may ask, where or what document did you see sand loading facilities by 17 tee?  I don't recall seeing that here.  Thanks if you can share.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2011, 06:50:07 PM »
Bryan,

My apologies for assuming it was TePaul, who also called last night to tell me you found it on your own.  IMHO, if Pat wants to see the original deeds himself, he ought to go find them like you do, rather than basically call your integrity into question.

TEPaul has informed me that he didn't supply Bryan with the deeds.
He seemed like the natural candidate since Bryan lives in Canada, quite a distance from Camden County.

So, I'll ask Bryan, did he venture to Camden County to obtain the deeds ?

If not, who supplied them ?

And, why wouldn't you disclose documents that are public records ?

I supplied you with the "stick routing" and welcomed your posting it, so I'm at a loss as why you'd refrain from doing so with public records


As always, as a taker of info from these threads, I appreciate the hard work others put in.  Its always fascinating to learn these little details, even as many are NOT signifgant to the actual design history of PV.  Who knows when someone like David is going to inform us about early century camer tech as a bonus to our regularly scheduled discussions.  (Being serious there, not snarky, as that kind of stuff really does fascinate me.)

Pat,

Also need to apolgize to you for a snarky comment, which I shouldn't have made.....even if true.  I don't think this thread needs to go that direction.  But, for the record, you keep asking me to list the examples of you throwing poo against the wall on the other thread, as if you haven't asked and I haven't answered at least a few times before.  I have and won't do it again.

Thanks for the appology, but you didn't have to.  I don't take comments, made in the heat of debate, too seriously.
And, neither should you or anyone else.
I mean, if you can't use terms of endearment, like "cretin", "moron" or "imbecile", what fun is it ?

But, I have yet to see you cite, with specificity where I lied or knowingly misrepresented the facts.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 11:49:51 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2011, 06:58:19 PM »
David,

FWIW, I took the widened RR ROW to be where they needed more width to build the large embankment across the valley, not as room for an extra siding or station.

If I may ask, where or what document did you see sand loading facilities by 17 tee?  I don't recall seeing that here.  Thanks if you can share.

Jeff,

There are early photos showing a significant structure near/next to the 17th tee.
In addition, the RR bed provides for dual tracks.




JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2011, 08:58:41 PM »
Pat,

You're slowly, but most certainly, disqualifying yourself from deserving to be taken even the slightest bit seriously. Bryan posted one of the deeds in reply #26. In addition, you didn't provide the stick routing to Bryan out of the goodness of your heart, you couldn't post it and needed someone to do so. He was your conduit. Don't hurt your arm patting yourself on your back...

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2011, 09:14:41 PM »
If Mr. Mucci is going to use the term "imbicile," he should at the very least spell it correctly. 

Great research, Bryan.   I just wish I were a Canadian tonight. 

And I mean that in the nicest possible way!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2011, 11:47:27 PM »
Pat,

You're slowly, but most certainly, disqualifying yourself from deserving to be taken even the slightest bit seriously.
Bryan posted one of the deeds in reply #26.

That was ONLY after I requested that he do so in reply # 16.

Please tell me that you understand that #16 comes before #26.

I think the sleep deprevation is getting to you.


In addition, you didn't provide the stick routing to Bryan out of the goodness of your heart, you couldn't post it and needed someone to do so. He was your conduit.

You're wrong again.

I had several sources who were willing to post the stick routing.
Bryan requested that I send it to him and I did.
If you doubt me, ask David Moriarty, Tommy Naccarato and others



Don't hurt your arm patting yourself on your back...

I'll do my best.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 11:50:48 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2011, 03:15:25 AM »
Yeesh.  Personally, I am glad you gave us the Cliff notes version.  IMHO, very ingenuous of you!

For your reading pleasure Jeff, I figured out a way to improve the image quality.  See the enhanced picture of the deed above.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2011, 03:19:30 AM »
Thanks for clarifying what you were looking for.  As for the rest, do you always have to be antagonistic and condescending?

As to your last two questions, yes and yes.

David,

Re the train station - the stick routing topo and the Cold plan (just above) both mark where the station is, alongside the beginning of the 1st fairway.  Is that not sufficient proof for you of their location? 

Bryan, this is an odd question given your recent position about the nonexistence of the "POND" and the "DAM" despite that each is marked on the same two maps.  Has your understanding of the topo map changed?

The station may always have been in that exact same location, I am trying to nail down a definite location for earlier than 1913-1914 because I recall reading somewhere that the location of the station was moved at some early point.   Also, it looks like there was a setup for loading and unloading RR cars down by the 17th tee as late as the 1930's, and so I wonder if this might have been the remnants of an earlier station. 

Did you notice that the RR Right of Way briefly widens, but that that the widened portion does not line up with the station on those maps?

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2011, 03:22:04 AM »
Sorry, David, I don't know when it was sold.  This deed popped out during the search.  I was trying to focus on the PV properties, so didn't pursue this one.


As a slight tangent from the Pine Valley deeds, George A. Crump, along with his sisters Helen and Elizabeth, and his brother Ralph inherited an almost 2 acre property from their mother upon her death, who in turn had inherited it upon her husband’s death.  The property was located near the intersection of Maple Terrace and Locust Streets in Merchantville, NJ.  On April 19, 1912 George A. Crump bought out his sisters’ (and their respective husbands) share of the family property for $1 (and no other valuable considerations).

Bryan,

Do you know when Crump sold this property? 

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2011, 03:26:16 AM »
If Mr. Mucci is going to use the term "imbicile," he should at the very least spell it correctly. 

Great research, Bryan.   I just wish I were a Canadian tonight. 

And I mean that in the nicest possible way!

Thanks Bill.  We can declare you an honorary Canuck if you like.  All you need to do is tell us you know who Don Cherry is.  ;)

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2011, 03:31:32 AM »
Pat,

You're slowly, but most certainly, disqualifying yourself from deserving to be taken even the slightest bit seriously.
Bryan posted one of the deeds in reply #26.

That was ONLY after I requested that he do so in reply # 16.

You have a very odd understanding of what "requested" means.  And, certainly an exaggerated sense of your importance in my decisions.

................................................


Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2011, 04:03:51 AM »

On May 25, 1915 George A. Crump purchased 45.64 acres from Virginia E. Ireland, a widow, for $1.00 and other valuable considerations.  The property in question abuts the northwest boundary of the Lumberton property as outlined in purple in the map below.

Crump still listed Merchantville as his place of residence.

Ireland had been granted the land by deed on April 15, 1896 by Anna L. Sumner.  So, now we have an Ireland and a Sumner in the mix, but no George Sumner Ireland, whose name has been mentioned in the debates about Pine Valley purchases.  Virginia Ireland was clearly a large landowner in the area.  She owned the property across the RR tracks as well as the property northwest of the Lumberton property.

It is curious that Crump purchased it in his own name since Pine Valley had been in existence for a couple of years and he had sold Pine Valley the Lumberton property two years earlier.  Perhaps, initially he had some personal interests in developing the land.



On July 7, 1916, after holding the property for a little more than a year, Crump turned around and sold the Ireland 45.64 acre tract to Pine Valley for $9,000. Perhaps there was some monetary or tax benefit to be gained by passing it through Crump.  Or, maybe, he changed his mind on whatever plans he had for the property.

« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 04:23:36 AM by Bryan Izatt »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2011, 07:10:51 AM »
The Eliza Pierce property sounds like a house in the town of Clementon. I wonder if Crump planned on using it as the project's HQ and living quarters during the early stages.

A few early member's homes were built in the purple Virginia Ireland quadrant.

It is well documented in news accounts the main property was purchased around Oct/Nov 1912, and that Crump did not inherit it. It is well documented the land was purchased for the purpose of a golf course, and not as a hunting reserve. Did some have lingering doubts about this?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2011, 08:55:13 AM »


That was ONLY after I requested that he do so in reply # 16.

Please tell me that you understand that #16 comes before #26.





And continued to bitch about him not having posted anything yet in #31...continuing deeper into the disqualification...

Pat,

Are you willing to agree that the ultimate discovery/creation of 13 - 15 had nothing to do with buying that land later in the process?



MacWood,

At least one of your sources that claimed Crump knew the land for years from hunting also claimed he owned it previously, that's the point. You never produced the document of the earliest date in which the source said Crump knew this land from hunting, are you prepared to do that?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2011, 02:07:55 PM »
Jim
That's true, but with so many solid news reports contradicting that story was there anyone who took that isolated story seriously? I didn't.

Of the numerous stories (Wilson, Bunker, Travers, Giles, Uzell, Ford, Wind and Shelley) claiming he found the site hunting and/or on horseback I believe the earliest is May 1914.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 02:16:57 PM by Tom MacWood »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2011, 03:10:19 PM »
If Mr. Mucci is going to use the term "imbicile," he should at the very least spell it correctly. 

Great research, Bryan.   I just wish I were a Canadian tonight. 

And I mean that in the nicest possible way!

Thanks Bill.  We can declare you an honorary Canuck if you like.  All you need to do is tell us you know who Don Cherry is.  ;)

Singer/golfer Don Cherry?  I was a fan!

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2011, 04:21:48 PM »
Tom,

It's hardly news 2 years after the fact...

I think your issue with Tillinghast's story is the sensationalization of it, is that fair? If he had simply said Crump first recognized the value of this site from the distant view of the hills and valleys from the train you wouldn't protest so much I suspect. Do you think the Shelly picture/caption was on the grounds that eventually became the 184 acre property Crump built the golf course on?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2011, 06:16:05 PM »
Jim
Tilly's story was three years after the fact...what's your point?

You have eight friends, associates and golf writers telling more or less the same story as opposed to one person telling the train story. To make matters worse Crump was not playing golf at the time he supposedly was traveling to AC, and we know he was actively looking at other sites after he supposedly discovered it looking out a train window, and we know Crump sent a letter to his friends in 1912 telling them he had just found the site, or two years after Tilly said he discovered the site. Your train story makes no sense, but as I've said before if you are attached to it I see no harm. As local myths go its a minor one.

Based on the fact I believe the train story is apocryphal I haven't put much thought into the debate surrounding the photo.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2011, 10:25:36 PM »
Tom,

It's hardly news 2 years after the fact...

I think your issue with Tillinghast's story is the sensationalization of it, is that fair? If he had simply said Crump first recognized the value of this site from the distant view of the hills and valleys from the train you wouldn't protest so much I suspect. Do you think the Shelly picture/caption was on the grounds that eventually became the 184 acre property Crump built the golf course on?

Jim,

Since you're so familiar with the land at PV, would you describe where you can see hills and valleys from the train tracks running parallel to PV ?

Would you cite the location of these hills and valleys by relating them to hole numbers.

For example, would you tell us what current holes had valleys in them that were visible from the train which was heading East.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2011, 10:31:24 PM »
Pat,

You're slowly, but most certainly, disqualifying yourself from deserving to be taken even the slightest bit seriously.
Bryan posted one of the deeds in reply #26.

That was ONLY after I requested that he do so in reply # 16.

You have a very odd understanding of what "requested" means.  And, certainly an exaggerated sense of your importance in my decisions.


Bryan, the FACT is that you did NOT publish the deed until AFTER I requested same.

As to your decisions, you begged me to forward you the "Stick Routing", which I did UNCONDITIONALLY.

I'll ask you again, since you didn't answer previously.

Did you find/discover the deed independent of anyone else's assistance/direction/ or was the deed discovered by other sources ?

If it was other sources, did they request that you not publish the documents on GCA.com ?

Is it possible that other unpublished, relevant source documentation remains at large ?

Thanks


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