re Lawsonia....

[John Kavanaugh]

One quick comment because I am on the road. The greens were perfect the day I played Lawsonia. It is the only course I can remember ever playing alone while traveling. I simply was not impressed by the experience.

[Ken Fry]

Ken:

I hope I don't come off as knocking Lawsonia -- it's probably my favorite course to play (but I also live 1-1/2 hours away, so it's pretty accessible to me).

I have played it several times in recent years, and although the course itself is in terrific condition, there are times when the green speeds seem a tad slow, and thus the "terror" -- for lack of a better word -- that comes into play when you face one of those big internal slopes with faster green speeds sometimes doesn't come into play. Fun, yes, and really enjoyable, but there is a side of me (as I suspect there is for alot of folks who post here) who like be terrorized every once in a while.

And I'd argue -- although of course this may be selective memory -- they seemed faster 15-some years ago when I first started playing the course. They did seem a bit more scary back then, so much so that it could impact your judgement on approach shots, i.e., don't leave it there or you'll putt the ball off the green/never get it close to the hole (ala examples cited in the Cyrstal Downs thread). I haven't gotten as much sense of that in recent years (although candor prompts me to admit I haven't been able to play it this year, so I'm glad to hear of reports from the field about their speed!) That doesn't diminish the enjoyment of the round, but I think there are some reduced chances of facing terror-filled putts on greens. That's a highly individualistic view of whether that makes one's round still enjoyable. It still is, but just wishing for a few moments of those.

My experience comes from a weekend and a few rounds on the course.  The greens ran consistent and the course was FUN.

This does raise an interesting question.  Green speed is an individual preference, but is it dangerous to form an opinion on a course, either extremely good or bad, based on the speed of the greens?  Speeds can change throughout a season or be at the mercy of weather.  I don't want to putt on shag carpet, but if a course's greens are set up at a consistent speed, I can adjust and enjoy playing.  To me, "terror filled" putts tend to be the result of putting ones self in the wrong place on the green in the first place.  Do we really need 12+ stimpmeter reading greens to remind us of that?

Ken

[John Kavanaugh]

One of the problems of playing alone is that there is nothing to be afraid of. 

[Mike Sweeney]

One of the problems of playing alone is that there is nothing to be afraid of. 

Are you saying that you are not afraid of yourself?

[RJ_Daley]

JK, I don't know if you are trying, but you do get a chuckle out of me, as I am suspecting you are mentioning Wild Horse and Lawsonia in your observations of them somewhat as filler on a trip and nothing to write home about, and the only thing those two have in common is perhaps me having tauted them in my years of commenting here.  If golf week likes to "throw a bone to us frugal and disconnected golfers", count me in and glad they recognize them.  Actually, I couldn't care less what Golfweek rating was ascribed to them over the years.  That they are two totally different golf genre- if you will, and happen to have repeated praise for the fun factors and highly thought of courses by some pretty credible golf course evaluators, is high enough praise for most who stay tuned in to drop in and see for themselves.  

I have played at Lawsonia in 6 decades, actually it may be 7 as I think I first played it as a yute, in 1959.  I have never been disappointed, and it is still as fun of a day on a golf course as any other place I've played.  While frugal and not connected, I have played a few...

I do have to wonder why you'd say that the ranking or rating of a mag like Golfweek to acknowledge these courses is a bone to be tossed to these two courses, in that I wonder if you think that if something is of the nature of a provincial economical modest offering that it is somehow to be diminished as not up to the stature of the more expensive, high profile offerings for the very connected?

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,

I am saying that when alone I am rarely embarrassed. I may even dance or sing. It is not the real world.

RJ,

I am on the road and will give you a detailed answer worthy of you contribution tomorrow. Thanks.

[RJ_Daley]

On the narrow questions of green speeds at Lawsonia, the slowest I've seen it was I'd guess to be around 8 stimp (a wild guess) but by most anyone's standard, pretty slow.  At that speed, but with the good turf that was on the higher cut, they rolled true.  When I did see it that slow, I found it every bit as much fun to putt the broad sweeping contours and tiers because it required the adjustment to putt in a different way than normal to firmly stroke it with some power.   Lawsonia happens to have a very nice practice green with similar dramatic contours to prepare you for your round.  It is well advised to spend several minutes there to acclimate ones's self, IMO.  Then it isn't such a let down, if it is slow, or a shock when confronting what contours you'll find on your round.

So in a way this is where Wild Horse and Lawsonia are different, yet the same.  Wild Horse has notoriously fast and firm greens, and has one of the best practice greens I know of to prep yourself.  Either at Lawsonia, or Wild Horse, you should be ready for what awaits you if you take that time to acclimate.  And, yet both have great contours out on the golf course and occasional slower speeds at Lawsonia or notoriously fast, both are previewed well on their very good practice greens.

[jeffwarne]

One quick comment because I am on the road. The greens were perfect the day I played Lawsonia. It is the only course I can remember ever playing alone while traveling. I simply was not impressed by the experience.

perhaps it was the company...

[Mark Pearce]

I played in the Midwest Mashie this May and thought the greens were at an excellent pace for the course.  Not the fastest greens I'v eplayed in the States by a distance (that would be Yale a couple of years ago immediately after a big College competition) but qcertainly quick enough to be fun and challenging.  Lawsonia has one of the bigger differentials between expectation and experience I have had this year, in a very positive way.

[PCCraig]

Every green is too slow if you don't hit your putts hard enough

[PThomas]

Secondly, I'm not quite getting your logic Paul.  I think you have it backwards.  Would Lawsonia be thought of better with more consistent conditioning of the greens in the past?  Is it therefore underrated due to inconsistencies in green conditions?  Perhaps.  I would say that if Crystal Downs' greens were as slow as Lawsonia's (the first time I played it), it would definitely take away from the course.

you are right George, maybe ir would be even better though of with more consistent greens..

...although  many of you have stated that the greens were not slow for your rounds, so perhaps this is an urban legend that needs to die...

[Steven Blake]

Consistency?? I thought we were talking about green speed? These are two different subjects altogether . . .

I played there a couple of times this year and found the greens to be perfect.  In fact one round I played with a foursome that had some plus handicaps playing and no one had fewer than 36 putts.  Were the greens fast? No and not slow either.  Should they have been faster? Absolutely not! Had they been faster it would have been goofy golf. Lag putting is difficult enough at Lawsonia without them rolling 11+.  It’s a great public facility that if the greens are fast we would be looking at 5+ hour rounds.  That’s just dumb in my mind.  The course is plenty fun, challenging and interesting without golfer’s obsession for overly fast, unsustainable green speeds.  More emphasis should be on firmness and smoothness, not speed.