How about some love for Harding Park?

[David_Tepper]

Anybody watch the Schwab Cup?

Bernie Langer said the course was "phenomenal." Michael Allen said the greens were "perfect." It played tough too. 

[Bill_McBride]

When I played there in the '70's it was pretty doggy.   

[Joel_Stewart]

I went out to the tournament on Thursday and was shocked at how good the conditioning was.  It brings up a question about what the TPC management group is doing compared to the previous management group, Kemper?    Kudos to the TPC staff at Harding.

On the other side, I still will always have negative feelings about the city using the TPC Architectural Services and the massive amount of money they spent to rebuild the golf course.  With that said, if they didn't line the pocket of Tim Finchem and the TPC, the Presidents Cup, the WGC and probably the Schwab Cup would not have been played at Harding.  It's a business and it's all about MONEY.

In my mind, if a real architect was used, Harding could have been a really great classic golf course and they wouldn't be suffering from the amount of debt they took on.  Lincoln park, Sharp Park and others could have benefitted, not just Harding.   It's now just a modern golf course on a classic site.

I still doubt that I would go play it if I had a spare day and doubt anyone on this board would give up a chance to play a dozen other courses in the Bay Area to play Harding.

[Patrick Kiser]

David,

Thought it looked pretty good.  Played Fleming a couple of weeks ago and thought it played pretty well.  I kept looking to see how the Harding side looked and thought it was in solid shape.

The poa greens seem to run rather true too.

My understanding is they have yet another management company and it appears they've done a nice job preparing for the Cup.

Then again ... Michael Allen is used to the "old" Harding   .

[Andy Stamm]

When I watched, it was raining. But, when they let it dry out, it really is great. I agree with Langer, Harding is phenomenal. The setting is pretty special as well, especially the back 9.

I had somebody ask me what's so hard about it probably because there's not really water, OB, etc, which made me think, there's really nothing hard about it, but it has held up very well to some very good tournaments. It's very, very playable for a mid-handicapper, but challenging and seemingly well liked by the pros. That's a great combination in my book.

[Joel_Stewart]

Then again ... Michael Allen is used to the "old" Harding   .

If the truth was known, I bet Michael Allen and Johnny Miller have played Harding very times compared to Olympic, SFGC, Lake Merced and Cal Club.  I read an interview once that Miller said he has never played the Presido golf club.

[Patrick Kiser]

Andy,

I think the usual recipe of deep rough along with tough pin placement on poa greens is what made it difficult.  Along with the cold, rain, and some wind ... these guys are probably not as familiar as much to these conditions.  The courses in and around the lake are rather micro climate in nature.  Putts can change speed throughout a round here too.

Just my guess.

[Patrick Kiser]

Then again ... Michael Allen is used to the "old" Harding   .

If the truth was known, I bet Michael Allen and Johnny Miller have played Harding very times compared to Olympic, SFGC, Lake Merced and Cal Club.  I read an interview once that Miller said he has never played the Presido golf club.

I thought Michael Allen was still a member at Olympic, so that would not surprise me.  I think he said something to the effect that he started out at Harding.

[astavrides]

I still doubt that I would go play it if I had a spare day and doubt anyone on this board would give up a chance to play a dozen other courses in the Bay Area to play Harding.

Maybe that's true, but most people don't have a chance to play the dozen private courses in the Bay Area that you are referring to.  It's the right up there with Wente, Half Moon-Ocean, and Cinnabar for the best public in the Bay Area (which excludes Santa Cruz and Monterey), it is the only one of the 4 that is a walking course, and the least expensive of the 4 if you are a NoCal resident.

[Andy Stamm]

Andy,

I think the usual recipe of deep rough along with tough pin placement on poa greens is what made it difficult.  Along with the cold, rain, and some wind ... these guys are probably not as familiar as much to these conditions.  The courses in and around the lake are rather micro climate in nature.  Putts can change speed throughout a round here too.

Just my guess.

The greens are still bent though aren't they? When I was last there regularly about 2 years ago, they were doing a pretty good job of keeping the poa out.

[Bill_McBride]

When I watched, it was raining. But, when they let it dry out, it really is great. I agree with Langer, Harding is phenomenal. The setting is pretty special as well, especially the back 9.

The back nine has to be good because the front nine is so boring.    Is there one really good hole on that nine?

[astavrides]

When I watched, it was raining. But, when they let it dry out, it really is great. I agree with Langer, Harding is phenomenal. The setting is pretty special as well, especially the back 9.

The back nine has to be good because the front nine is so boring.    Is there one really good hole on that nine?

Have you played it since the 70's?  I never played it before the redo so I'm not sure how much they changed it.  I think the routing is the same though.  On the front, I think #4 is an interesting par 5.  2 is a pretty good hole.  The par 3's (3 and 8 are pretty good).  9 is fun because it is a reachable par 5.  The only hole I don't like on the front is 6 because it calls for a long draw off the tee and I tend to hit a fade. 

[Bill_McBride]

When I watched, it was raining. But, when they let it dry out, it really is great. I agree with Langer, Harding is phenomenal. The setting is pretty special as well, especially the back 9.

The back nine has to be good because the front nine is so boring.    Is there one really good hole on that nine?

Have you played it since the 70's?  I never played it before the redo so I'm not sure how much they changed it.  I think the routing is the same though.  On the front, I think #4 is an interesting par 5.  2 is a pretty good hole.  The par 3's (3 and 8 are pretty good).  9 is fun because it is a reachable par 5.  The only hole I don't like on the front is 6 because it calls for a long draw off the tee and I tend to hit a fade.  

No, haven't played for many years.  #9 is even more boring because they play it as a long par 4.  I agree #4 is a good par 5 but there is no second shot challenge.   The holes along the lake really make the course shine, and also much better topography on the back nine.  

[Terry Lavin]

It's now just a modern golf course on a classic site. 

I still doubt that I would go play it if I had a spare day and doubt anyone on this board would give up a chance to play a dozen other courses in the Bay Area to play Harding.

I've never played Harding, but these two statements summarize my "from the couch" analysis from watching this weekend.  Oddly enough, I watched some of the coverage at my club and some guy was trying to convince me that the tournament was being played at Olympic Club.  To me, only the trees looked similar...

[Michael George]

It looks pretty boring on tv.  However, looks like a great site with tons of potential if the right architect got a hold of it.

I would probably play it over a couple of courses that I shouldn't in the Bay area due to it being a tournament course and with the Sandy Tatum hisotry.  

Not having been there, I wonder how it compares to Lincoln Park and Presidio.

[Kevin_Reilly]

I read an interview once that Miller said he has never played the Presido golf club.

That actually doesn't surprise me.  I played junior golf and high school golf in SF and got to play just about everywhere...as I've posted before, our home course for HS golf was SFGC.  But Presidio never hosted anything, and if not for the fact that the father of one of my teammates was a general stationed at the Presidio, we would never have played there.  As it was, we got to play there once a year under his authority, the same way we also got to play Bayonet.

Presidio in those days was a "mystery" course for most.  Today, I'd play Presidio almost every time in a choice between there and Harding....I just prefer the "feel" of the place.

[Kevin_Reilly]

The greens are still bent though aren't they? When I was last there regularly about 2 years ago, they were doing a pretty good job of keeping the poa out.

When I played there in June, the greens had the multi-color look that suggested quite a bit of poa.  The greens sure looked good on TV this weekend, though (caveat that Golf Channel didn't use its HD cameras for the telecast, so the picture wasn't very sharp).

[Tim Leahy]

I just wish the city of SF would keep the course up to tournament conditions the rest of the year.

[JLahrman]

Presidio in those days was a "mystery" course for most.  Today, I'd play Presidio almost every time in a choice between there and Harding....I just prefer the "feel" of the place.

I played Presidio for the first time this summer and thought it was great.  Lots of fun shots and tricky greens.  Plus, the place just screams "San Francisco".

[Howard Riefs]

Sadly, what I remember most about Harding Park is playing holes 14, 15 and 16 amidst the incessant gunshots heard from the SF Police Dept rifle range and echoing across Lake Merced. I imagine those playing holes 1, 2, 4 of the Lake Course at Olympic get the same melody.

I played the course in September 2009, about three weeks before it hosted the President's Cup.  It was a good test with the fairways pinched to 24 yards and 3+ inch rough.  Great set of greens.

Harding Park is a tremendous deal for SF residents at $47/round. As a non-resident, I wouldn't play it again at $170/round (http://www.harding-park.com/sites/courses/layout9.asp?id=1017&page=58490)

[Andy Stamm]

I'd love to hear more about the greens if anybody's out there regularly. Like I said they were pretty successful at keeping the bent out as of two years ago, but that's a tough fight, I'm sure. I'm questioning whether Michael Allen would call them "perfect" if they were poa.

No doubt the front suffers from its location and a number of holes that aren't as strong as those on the back. In addition to 4, I think 6 is quite good (although the tee box is pretty claustrophobic and the cart path is poorly located), but I like the green and bunkering. I also like the par 3s, especially three, which is probably one of the best uphill 3s I've played. For me 9 is a snoozer, although it's a good scoring opportunity! I like the 3 par 5s in 4 holes.

FYI, for the Seniors they played 9 as a par 5 and 12 as a 4 for par 71, which was a change from the President's Cup. From the way back tee, 9 was long enough to be a 5 for them.

[Padraig Dooley]

I played there three weeks ago, thought the front nine was a bit nondescript but the back nine was quite good. The rough was very lush, greens pretty good.

Would have no problem heading back.

[David_Tepper]

"I just wish the city of SF would keep the course up to tournament conditions the rest of the year."

Tim Leahy -

While we would all love to see Harding in "tournament conditions" year-round (especially yours truly, who plays there 2-3 times a month), do you really think it is possible to keep a course that gets over 50,000 of play a year in that kind of shape?

While the general condition of Harding has improved over the past 12-24 months, they did close the course for play 10 days before the Schwab event started. That, and the warm, sunny weather we had here, certainly allowed them to bring the course to peak condition for the event.

DT  

[astavrides]

FYI, for the Seniors they played 9 as a par 5 and 12 as a 4 for par 71, which was a change from the President's Cup. From the way back tee, 9 was long enough to be a 5 for them.

They called 9 a par 5 in the President's Cup also. 

[Tim Leahy]

"I just wish the city of SF would keep the course up to tournament conditions the rest of the year."

Tim Leahy -

While we would all love to see Harding in "tournament conditions" year-round (especially yours truly, who plays there 2-3 times a month), do you really think it is possible to keep a course that gets over 50,000 of play a year in that kind of shape?

While the general condition of Harding has improved over the past 12-24 months, they did close the course for play 10 days before the Schwab event started. That, and the warm, sunny weather we had here, certainly allowed them to bring the course to peak condition for the event.

DT  

For $170 a round, I would expect near tournament conditions. Torrey Pines was able to do it, when I lived there a while back.