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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
All this masterpiece talk got me to thinking of the hype that goes toward creating the masterpieces over the years.  In most cases the ability of a group to maintain and nurture the course over a long period of time has been critical.  Name some that could or can be masterpieces if they were given the opportunity.  North Fulton/Chastain in Atlanta is one of the first to come to mind for me.  Forest Hills in Augusta could have been another.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Keith OHalloran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Montauk Downs is pretty great, if maintained as a private, I suspect it could be better.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tall grass, maybe.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Lawsonia definitely.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Frank M

  • Karma: +0/-0
IMHO the answer to this question is none. Whether private or public a great course/masterpiece is a great course/masterpiece. I can see past conditions to appreciate high quality golf design.

Chris Hans

  • Karma: +0/-0
To Mac and anybody else interested..Tallgrass absolutely will be "masterpiece" -like in the next two to three years or so.  As of about a month ago, everyone involved in the operations there have become fully committed to doing the "right things."  In fact the bunkers are being put back as we speak the way Gil left them in 2000, including most of the bunkers that were intended to be revetted.  Severe thatch issues are being corrected, the native areas are being cleaned up and about fifteen dead tee decks have been resodded.  The right people are now in place and the resources are definitely there and will be utilized effectively and efficiently.  So keep an eye out for it!!!  ;)
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 03:02:40 AM by Chris Hans »

ChipRoyce

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'm not sure Caledonia Golf & Fish Club would be considered a 'masterpiece' but on my first visit there I was struck by the quality of the architecture / style of the course and some of the qualities of the clubhouse (fishing club, the stop for chowder and the bar area). I felt then (and still do) that it would be a top 100 rated course and a coveted invite when in MB if it were in fact private.

Jim Nugent

Apache Stronghold. 

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike,

if you ask me from a GCA point of view condition is irrelivant. I believe TOC is already considered a masterpiece.

Jon

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Mike:

I haven't ever called any golf course a masterpiece.

I'm not sure I would ever have used that term anyway, but the clincher was that Treetops in Michigan NAMED its first course the "Robert Trent Jones Masterpiece".  :)

It certainly does matter that the owners of a golf course care enough about it to find a good superintendent to manage and improve it.  However, it only matters whether it's public or private to the degree that the owners with more money and more passion and more likely to make their courses private.  That was true in the old days, but not so much anymore ... witness Mike Keiser, Herb Kohler, Mark Parsinen et al.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
I enjoyed Tall Grass a great bit this summer, as I did Links at Union Vale. They were two expected but still nice portions of our trip. The Bethpagers were as promised, with the Yellow, Blue and Green crayons being much nicer surprises than anticipated, and the Red marker still quite mind-blowing. In fact, it was one of the holes in the flat/boring/vertically challenged section of the course (I believe number it was #12, the split-fairway one) that engendered the greatest discussion after the round.

To become a masterpiece, sometimes the right collision of affection and upkeep/upgrade are required. Would #2 have become a masterpiece with sand greens and without the recent C~C refinishing?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike:

I haven't ever called any golf course a masterpiece.

I'm not sure I would ever have used that term anyway, but the clincher was that Treetops in Michigan NAMED its first course the "Robert Trent Jones Masterpiece".  :)

It certainly does matter that the owners of a golf course care enough about it to find a good superintendent to manage and improve it.  However, it only matters whether it's public or private to the degree that the owners with more money and more passion and more likely to make their courses private.  That was true in the old days, but not so much anymore ... witness Mike Keiser, Herb Kohler, Mark Parsinen et al.

Tom,
I did think about whether or not to use the term "Masterpiece" but used it because it was used in the other thread which made me ask the question.  But I do agree that it should probably be a word such as "exceptional".

And your second paragraph is definitely correct.  The newer courses that have been created were what made me ask the question.  Which brings to mind another question:  I like the effort made at PD to blend the green perimeters into the surrounds seamlessly and wish it were done more but how does one determine when he can mark his ball in competition? 

"Oh, the streets of Rome are filled with rubble
Ancient footprints are everywhere
You can almost think that you’re seein’ double
On a cold, dark night on the Spanish Stairs
Got to hurry on back to my hotel room
Where I’ve got me a date with Botticelli’s niece
She promised that she’d be right there with me
When I paint my masterpiece"
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Semi-obscure Dead reference?  Solid! In the future, however, please stick to the prime '70-'78 period... ;)  (there must also be 50 better Dylan songs to choose from)...
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 07:36:24 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Semi-obscure Dead reference?  Solid! In the future, however, please stick to the prime '70-78 period... ;)  (there must also be 50 better Dylan songs to choose from)...
Of course there are 50 better Dylan songs.  He didn't call that one a masterpiece.  He said "when"  .  BTW; "Just Like a Women" was his masterpiece. ;)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Masterpiece" or not, if Lawsonia were private or located closer to a metropolitan area it would be much more highly regarded.
H.P.S.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Perhaps appropriate from the other thread about what course would stand to gain the most from a few $$'s:   Askernish
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Masterpiece" or not, if Lawsonia were private or located closer to a metropolitan area it would be much more highly regarded.

Why so? I've seen plenty of "highly regarded" courses near major metro areas that are over-treed, overly lush, and subject to the whims of various greens committee chairs. Lawsonia has done well to maintain a pretty solid maintenance meld (save for too-slow greens), with a significant tree-cutting effort in recent years, and an oversight mission that is faithful to Langford and Moreau's original vision, for the most part.

Carl Rogers

Tobacco Road???  Is it a masterpiece already?
 Played there on Oct 21
Maintainenace - Playability wise some observations:
- bunkers are not really maintained any more as bunkers, they are waste areas ... local rule allows the player to rake and smooth and place the ball at the player's discretion
- carts are allowed - required to drive on the 'waste areas' all the way almost up to 5 feet from some greens
- all woods and wild areas are played as lateral hazards
- many bells out in the fairway to signal the group behind it is clear to play

I am sure this is to speed up play....

However as a high end private w/ lots of forecaddies, the course would get a  lot less play, a lot fewer carts (or none) and management could maintain the course as Strantz intended
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 10:29:57 AM by Carl Rogers »

Bill McKinley

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'm surprised Pebble hasn't been mentioned.  I've debated with some avid golfers about if Pebble & Cypress changed their acess, what would the preception be.
2016 Highlights:  Streamsong Blue (3/17); Streamsong Red (3/17); Charles River Club (5/16); The Country Club - Brookline (5/17); Myopia Hunt Club (5/17); Fishers Island Club (5/18); Aronomink GC (10/16); Pine Valley GC (10/17); Somerset Hills CC (10/18)

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Masterpiece" or not, if Lawsonia were private or located closer to a metropolitan area it would be much more highly regarded.

Why so? I've seen plenty of "highly regarded" courses near major metro areas that are over-treed, overly lush, and subject to the whims of various greens committee chairs. Lawsonia has done well to maintain a pretty solid maintenance meld (save for too-slow greens), with a significant tree-cutting effort in recent years, and an oversight mission that is faithful to Langford and Moreau's original vision, for the most part.

Phil:

I was mostly referring to the average golfer. While most of us on GCA know about and understand Lawsonia Links, it's almost unknown outside of Wisconsin. I've mentioned it to a number of somewhat serious golfers in Chicago and Minneapolis and I can't recall any of those people who had been there, or even had heard of it.

I believe it was Steve Salmen at the Midwest Mashie who said something along the lines of "If this was on Long Island, it would be a top 10 golf course in the U.S." That's not a knock on Lawsonia, mostly that it flies under the radar and lacks that private course allure to the average golfer.
H.P.S.

Travis Dewire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Semi-obscure Dead reference?  Solid! In the future, however, please stick to the prime '70-'78 period... ;)  (there must also be 50 better Dylan songs to choose from)...


Never too obscure for a Dead reference!!!

Dead > Dylan !

Pete Balzer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Prairie Club- Dunes Course

Sam Morrow

From what I have read on this site what if Rustic Canyon were private?

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
#2 might be even more highly regarded if it was private
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
#2 might be even more highly regarded if it was private

+1.

I know raters are supposed to be immune from weather, pace of play, playing partners... but in reality, 10th tee starts, 3 groups on a tee, cart path only and a feeling of being herded can certainly detract from the experience of playing #2.

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