Bandon Dunes...bulldoze and start over

[Mac Plumart]

Well, I figured the Bandon Trails thread was so successful why not create a "template" out of the title and go with it.

Seriously, Bandon Dunes was my second favorite at the resort but many are saying they have no desire to play it again.  I'd like to delve into that...but I don't want to dilute the Trails thread...therefore, I started this one.

I loved Bandon Dunes.  I thought some of the holes were incredible.  1, 2, 16, 17 jump into my head immediately as terrific, if not amazing, golf holes.  With 16 being the best hole I've played to date.

I could understand that the routing is a bit disjointed to start, but the end result is getting you to some good hole locations.  I'll take that trade off.

I thought nothing was over-done.  The greens were great with interesting undulations, but not over the top.  The bunkers were well placed, but not overly manicured and frilly for frilly sake.

The routing seemed to take good advantage of the wind and create some incredible wonderful views.

I loved the lack of rough and width of the golf course.

What do the people who are negative on Dunes think?  Who sees other things that are positive about the course?

Please discuss.

[Rob Rigg]

4 is one of the best on the property - and was even better before the de-gorsed it quite a bit.

5 is even better than 4 - especially pre-bikini wax.

14 was a real gem before the bikini wax too - the gorse on the right off the tee made for a really interesting tee shot.

Of the 4 all world courses at the resort BD was a clear 4th for me after my first visit to the resort. After visit number 5 or 6 it has moved up to 3rd place and I find myself enjoying the course more and more each visit.

It is a solid golfing experience - well balanced between difficultly, opportunity, beauty, recovery and plays well in the summer and winter winds.

BD is the most played course at the Resort and the overwhelming "retail golfer" favorite. No 'dozers here!

[Tom_Doak]

BD is the most played course at the Resort and the overwhelming "retail golfer" favorite. No 'dozers here!

Rob:

Where'd you get your statistics?

I haven't seen the round counts for 3-4 years now, but I know that for the first few years Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes did pretty much the same numbers of rounds from the day Pacific opened.

[Joe_Tucholski]

After one visit Bandon Dunes was my favorite course on the resort.  I ended up playing BD three times and each of the other courses once.  This happened because my third round each day was played on the course that I could get out on immediately.  It ended up being BD each day.  I wanted to get the third round on PD as it was my least favorite after one play but would have had to wait and hour or two.

I think playing BD in the late afternoon with the course essentially to myself probably boosted my view of the course.

The weakest holes on the course in my mind are 9 and 18 but I still like the holes.  My favorites are 16, 4, 12, 5, 13 and 14.  

16 is my favorite hole at the resort.  Some say it's all about the eye candy and that probably has a lot to do with it.  The visual on the tee is awesome.  I also think there are plenty of options and the shot needs to be played well whatever option you choose (driver at the green, iron short, hybrid/wood to the left).

I really don't see any glaring negatives with the course.

[Alex Miller]

I've heard that Pacific Dunes is more of an Irish links and Bandon is more of a Scottish links.

Could it be that one style is superior to the other, or at least appeals more to this DG than the other?

I don't think any course at the resort should be passed over, even in return trips. They each provide a unique golf experience, and at the VERY least Bandon Dunes tends to keep me sane by allowing me to score decently  I think it is a very good course and the resort would probably not have grown in the way it has if BD weren't the original.

As great as 16 and 17 are, 1 and 2 are my favorite on the course.

[Mac Plumart]

Very interesting stuff.

Alex, my only trip to GB&I was to Scotland earlier this year and at Bandon Dunes Resort I kept waiting for "links" golf like I saw in Scotland and it finally showed up at Old Mac and Bandon Dunes.  This makes your Ireland and Scotland comments very interesting to me.

Also, I really would love to hear some opinions of people who say BD is their least favorite at the resort.  I'm sure you all know me, I'm not looking for an internet food fight.  Rather I really want to hear opinions in all shapes and sizes to get a sense of what you like, dislike, value, hate, love, etc.

[Jud_T]

For starters 18 (or is it 17 or both?) is quite penal and a real buzzkill IMO.  13 also is too severe short of the green and thus one needs a short iron and an aerial approach as I recall.  I'm glad lots of folks play the course because they like it and it's the resort's namesake.  Keeps the tee sheet open on the other courses.  Knock yourselves out boys.  Take away the historical significance and the views, put a sharp pencil to it and your left with a good course amongst great ones.  Take away the views from Pac Dunes and you're still left with a phenomenal course where one can actually use the contours to one's advantage more often than not.

[Mac Plumart]

Jud...

Trying to summarize...13 is too severe short of the green and 18 (possibly 17) too penal.

You think the fact it was the first course at the resort and the beautiful views inflate the consensus opinion on the course's quality.

You think it is good...not great.

Is that correct?

[Jud_T]

Pretty much.  I think Ben's point on the other thread about how it's the least linkslike of the 4 in terms of how the course plays is the real issue more than nitpicking individual holes.

[John Kirk]

I see potential run-up (or links-like) holes as being #4, #5, #7, #9, #12, #13, and #18.  That's not too bad.

The greens were in great shape recently, and the course was an unmitigated joy.  I always have a great time there.  Once again, the home state bias must be in play, since I see Bandon Dunes as among my favorite courses, in the 8-9 range. 

[Joe_Tucholski]

I could understand that the routing is a bit disjointed to start, but the end result is getting you to some good hole locations.  I'll take that trade off.

Mac what do you mean with the routing being disjointed.  Are you talking the area between 3 green to 4 tee and 8 green to 9 tee or are you talking about 6 green to 7 tee...or something else?

[Mac Plumart]

In response to my comments on the awkward routing, I was talking about some of the longer walks from green to tee on some of the holes.  Some were a bit long and broke the vibe of the course a bit. 

If you look at the aerial of the routing at the Bandon website...http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/pages/bandon_dunes/49.php...you can see 1 green to 2 tee is a bit long...3 to 4 the same...6 to 7...8 to 9.  It was actually on the 3 to 4 transition that I really began to think about it.  It is not that this is awful routing, but when you just played Pacific Dunes and Old Mac the day before it has a tendency to stand out.  Again, not awful by any stretch.  But if you want to nitpick this aspect, I think you can.

But these walks set you up to play some pretty good holes.

[Tim Bert]

Mac - interesting that you noted the walk between holes standing out after playing Pacific Dunes.  Pacific is easily my favorite course at the resort and one of my favorites in the world, but the walks from 3 to 4, 11 to 12, and 13 to 14 don't seem to me to be significantly shorter or more natural the the transitions you noted at Bandon Dunes.

[Mac Plumart]

Tim...

I think you are right on distance...in fact there is no doubt you are.  But think about that walk from 13 to 14.  That walk is pretty awesome.  That dune is really, really neat.  You get to walk back by those really neat bunkers and preview the 14th hole...nasty bunkers and all.  I thought that was really cool and let me re-live playing 13 and preview 14. 

To me, that is cool stuff and it really worked in the routing.





For my taste, it isn't all about distance.  It is what the walk is like, what is in view, is it reliving something, building anticipation for something, or is it just cool.

[Tim Bert]

I'm glad lots of folks play the course because they like it and it's the resort's namesake.  Keeps the tee sheet open on the other courses.  Knock yourselves out boys.

Jud - You and I can agree on something after all.  We're just talking about two different courses at the resort!  Well, I guess I can't use the namesake part.  

[Tim Bert]

Mac - I wouldn't want 13 or 14 to be in any other place.  That one is only awkward because of the backwards walk and the steps but both holes are wonderful. The other two walks that I cited at Pacific are more in line with the ones at Bandon and I don't think you can use flashy pictures to convince me otherwise!

[Mac Plumart]

 

[Jim Tang]

I've been to Bandon twice and will visit again next July.  Bandon Dunes has always been a joy to play.  

I felt the course had several great short par 4's.  I loved the width of the layout, allowing for different lines of play.  There is some decent elevation change.  Being along the cliffs, with the surf, and a golf club in hand, is exhilerating.  I've never really bought into the "If you took away the views..." argument.  The views are part of the course.  They can't be taken away, and, they are partly what makes Bandon, Bandon.

I'm not a big fan of the 18th hole.  To me, it was a letdown after 16 and 17.  I also found the walks between some of the greens and tees a bit odd and long.

Bandon is my 2nd favorite course at the resort, after Pacific.  I have yet to see Old Mac.

[Carl Rogers]

I am not sure about the 'bulldozing' element of this thread .....
but in other threads concerning all Bandon 18, BD seems to have the fewer number of holes in the 'best' selections.

[Joe_Tucholski]

Mac - interesting that you noted the walk between holes standing out after playing Pacific Dunes.  Pacific is easily my favorite course at the resort and one of my favorites in the world, but the walks from 3 to 4, 11 to 12, and 13 to 14 don't seem to me to be significantly shorter or more natural the the transitions you noted at Bandon Dunes.

Tim you were thinking exactly the way I was.  I went and measured in google earth and the two longest walks on BD are about 20 yards longer each than the two longest on PD.

Also I thought Mac might have also been talking about the criss-cross walks but at PD there is more of a criss cross pattern.

The point to point distances that I measured for the longer tee to green treks are below

Bandon   
green-tee   distance (ish) in yards
eight-nine   165
six-seven   160
three-four   135
one-two   122
two-three   75

Pacific   
green-tee   distance (ish) in yards
eleven-twelve   140
six-seven   140
three-four   135
fourteen-fifteen   100
thirteen-fourteen   95

[Mac Plumart]

So you guys are arguing that the distance of the walks is the only thing that makes a walk awkward.  If that is the case, I disagree 100%.  See my previous posts.

And if you want to start the "Pac Dunes...bulldoze and start over" that is fine.  Now that we have the template for the thread, we can do all 4 Bandon courses and keep going from there.   

[Mark Saltzman]

So you guys are arguing that the distance of the walks is the only thing that makes a walk awkward.  If that is the case, I disagree 100%.  See my previous posts.

Mac,

What other than distance of walk (and it being uphill) can make it awkward?  Serious question.

And I get completely what you are saying that there are some long walks that aren't awkward.  I agree, though I think that most long walks plain suck.

[Tim Bert]

Mac - I'm not referring solely to distance. I think 11 to 12 at Pacific Dunes is at least as "awkward" as any green to tee transition at Bandon Dunes.

[Mac Plumart]

So you guys are arguing that the distance of the walks is the only thing that makes a walk awkward.  If that is the case, I disagree 100%.  See my previous posts.

Mac,

What other than distance of walk (and it being uphill) can make it awkward?  Serious question.

And I get completely what you are saying that there are some long walks that aren't awkward.  I agree, though I think that most long walks plain suck.

Hey Mark...

Here is a post in its entirety that I put up on Keith's thread about awkward routings.  

Keith...

One course I am really interested to play is Highlands Links in Canada.  I haven't seen many pictures or heard too many people talk about it...but one aspects I've read about is its routing.  I read that there are some long green to tee transitions, but they make the those walks like nature walks and they are actually a positive aspect of the course.  Anyway, that is what I've read and I am interested to check it out.

And as for my 2 cents on what is acceptable on green to tee transitions, it centers on the flow of the course.  If the course feels like it starts and stops, then I don't like it.  If it flows...I'm okay with it.  For example, I've played many courses (mainly courses designed for golf carts) where you play a hole (and the hole can be really good) but then you stop, get in a cart or walk across a neighborhood street, through someone's yard, to get to the next tee box.  This kills the flow as mentally I shift out of playing golf for the time I make the transition and then have to get re-settled into golf.  I really don't enjoy this at all.

You bring up Sand Hills.  To me, that routing is wonderful.  Hole out, begin your ride/walk to the next hole.  The transitions aren't too long, however sometimes they are up hill, sometimes they are a bit long, but the hole time the vibe of the course and flow is maintained.  The environment never changes, so mentally you stay in the round the entire time.  

Again, 2 cents...take it or leave it.

To me, awkward routings kill the flow and/or vibe of a course.  Not the distance per se.

Joe highlighted the from 13 to 14 at Pac Dunes...to me that walk was awesome...and I posted above why I think that way.

But like I mentioned and alluded to in the cut and pasted post...these are just my views on routing...my 2 cents on what I like.


Tim...

Fair enough.  I think Pac Dunes has a more pleasing routing for my taste, but I'm not saying it is perfect.  And I do prefer Bandon to Pac Dunes in total.  But both rank very highly in my book.

[David_Elvins]

Mac Plumart,

Whilst I am happy to treat every course on its merits and enjoy it for what it is, if there is one course in the world that should be bulldozed and started again, I reckon you are spot on in your thread title- it should be Bandon Dunes.  

Bandon Dunes isn't so much a golf course as 5-6 interesting seaside holes joined together by a series of average holes and even averager walks between holes.  

At a resort that hosts three courses full of inticacies and subtleties, desgned by 2 of the world's great modern architectural firms, Bandon Dunes stands out for it lack of depth, subtely or attention to detail.

The site is world class but the course is far from it.  Compared to its neighbours, it is a wate of good land and handing it over to Gil Hanse to work his magic would not likely improve the Bandon Dunes Resort's economic outlook, but for us archi buffs, it would improve the standing of the bandon Dunes Resort.