[Michael Whitaker]

I had the good fortune to visit Ballyhack and Dismal River this year. They are VERY similar in the type of golf experience offered. Both courses present what I call (lovingly) "roller coaster" golf... a bold and thrilling golfing experience.

One would be hard pressed to say which course is better and I'm not sure which one I would give the nod... so, I'm asking you guys who have played both to help me do a matchplay comparison of the courses.

I'll start it off by saying I give the first hole to Dismal River. The first at Ballyhack is a terrific hole, but the first at DR is epic... long, rolling fairway with a hidden punchbowl green. Actually, I feel the first at DR is too hard for a starting hole, but the first at Ballyhack requires the tee shot to clear a ravine, then offers an approach shot that is severely uphill to a green that will reject any marginally struck shot and send it back down the hill to the golfer. At DR it is hard to reach the first green in regulation, but once there you have a reasonable chance to two putt. At Ballyhack, if you are fortunate to have your approach stay on the green you could easily three, four, or five putt. Both holes are excellent, but I prefer the first at DR to the first at Ballyhack.

Dismal River 1up.

[JC Jones]

Gentleman Whitaker,

I've not played either course but I have a question nonetheless.  Isn't Ballyhack a foothills/mountain course built on clay while Dismal River is a sand hills course built on all sand?  It seems to me that the courses would play completely different from each other.  What do you think?

[Tom_Doak]

The first at Ballyhack is a terrific hole, ...  requires the tee shot to clear a ravine, then offers an approach shot that is severely uphill to a green that will reject any marginally struck shot and send it back down the hill to the golfer. ...  if you are fortunate to have your approach stay on the green you could easily three, four, or five putt.

Are you sure you meant "terrific" and not "terrifying" ?  If that is the opening hole, I'm not sure I want to hear about the other seventeen.

[Garland Bayley]

The first at Ballyhack is a terrific hole, ...  requires the tee shot to clear a ravine, then offers an approach shot that is severely uphill to a green that will reject any marginally struck shot and send it back down the hill to the golfer. ...  if you are fortunate to have your approach stay on the green you could easily three, four, or five putt.

Are you sure you meant "terrific" and not "terrifying" ?  If that is the opening hole, I'm not sure I want to hear about the other seventeen.

I think he's trying to say that Ballyhack's high slope rating is well earned.

[Chris DeNigris]

 I think the first at Ballyhack is more terrific than terrifying...mostly due to it's length or lack of it. A decent drive will easily clear the ravine (from all but the tip tees) and leave a short iron in (or up).  The false front is a bit scary but since you're likely hitting wedge, 9 or 8 it's not too difficult to keep the approach on the green. Visually intimidating yes, but plays easier than it looks. A fun starter.

I've never seen #2 at Dismal but it better be pretty dang amazing to keep the match from AS.

[Carl Rogers]

If walking vs non-walking is a criteria here .... Ballyhack is in the pure mountain goat category to walk and carry.

Not sure about the comparison between NE vs Southwest VA golf.

Chris, I agree about the 1st hole.

The 2nd through 5th at Ballyhack is excellent.  6th through 8th the least interesting. 9th, par 5 is befuddling. There is a huge difference in the scale of the landscape between front and back (across a road).  Back nine really solid from start to finish w/ a wild (Strantz like) double green for 13th & 15th. Hole 14 may be a little bit of a let down.  Terrific 18th green complex.

[Jason Topp]

I keep comparing Ballyhack to Stoneeagle in my mind. The greens and the tilt carry some similarities.  I think Ballyhack has more variety but Stoneeagle is more playable for mortals.

[Michael Whitaker]

Gentleman Whitaker,

I've not played either course but I have a question nonetheless.  Isn't Ballyhack a foothills/mountain course built on clay while Dismal River is a sand hills course built on all sand?  It seems to me that the courses would play completely different from each other.  What do you think?

JC - I understand that the dirt is different, but the two courses are close to the same in style of golf offered. The playability might be somewhat different, but I'm not 100% sure as I played DR in hot and dry July conditions and Ballyhack in wet conditions in October. Even still, the two courses reminded me of each other. I was constantly thinking about how similar the courses played. Hopefully others with better knowledge of the courses will chime in.

[Michael Whitaker]

The first at Ballyhack is a terrific hole, ...  requires the tee shot to clear a ravine, then offers an approach shot that is severely uphill to a green that will reject any marginally struck shot and send it back down the hill to the golfer. ...  if you are fortunate to have your approach stay on the green you could easily three, four, or five putt.

Are you sure you meant "terrific" and not "terrifying" ?  If that is the opening hole, I'm not sure I want to hear about the other seventeen.

Tom - You would love the first hole at Ballyhack... it goes straight up hill.  

[JC Jones]

Gentleman Whitaker,

I've not played either course but I have a question nonetheless.  Isn't Ballyhack a foothills/mountain course built on clay while Dismal River is a sand hills course built on all sand?  It seems to me that the courses would play completely different from each other.  What do you think?

JC - I understand that the dirt is different, but the two courses are close to the same in style of golf offered. The playability might be somewhat different, but I'm not 100% sure as I played DR in hot and dry July conditions and Ballyhack in wet conditions in October. Even still, the two courses reminded me of each other. I was constantly thinking about how similar the courses played. Hopefully others with better knowledge of the courses will chime in.

Thanks for the follow up.  I should really take the few hours and get up to Ballyhack one of these days.

[Bill_McBride]

I haven't been to Dismal River, just Ballyhack last week, but I don't know how DR or any other course could be built on a piece of property as wild as BH.  It was fascinating to see how good a course Lester George could build on that terrain.

And kudos to Craig Disher and Evan Fleischer for walking and carrying that sucker, I was humbled!   

[Michael Whitaker]

Come on... has no one played both Ballyhack and Dismal River? 

[Mac Plumart]

Sorry.  Not yet. 

[Wade Whitehead]

Tom and others:

Ballyhack presents the most exciting first shot in golf.  It's more manageable than it seems and players often hit a short club into the green.  The approach is demanding but should be.  I've never seen four or five putts on the green (though I've seen players fail to respect the false front and pay a heavy price).  Once aboard most tackle the relatively benign pinnable section of the green in just two putts.

The hole sets the perfect tone for the rest of the course.  If a player can swallow some pride and play the correct line many holes are gettable.  If the player fails to concentrate or wants to test the limits he risks consequence.  Ballyhack is all about angles and understanding and applying the ground game.  If Dismal River places as much emphasis on those things, hats off.

WW

[Chris DeNigris]

Since several more have now had a chance to play both courses, I'll resurrect this thread for a fun hole comparison match.

Mike W already has DR 1 up after the first and I'll agree with him there as long as we're playing DR1 from the back tees. A great hole from back there.

Number 2 at BH is probably one of the top 10 par 5s I've ever played. A fantastic hole. DR2 is a good hole, although a bit controversial and not quite to the level of its counterpart. All square after 2.

3rd hole is a battle of solid par 3s. I think the green complex at BH3 sets it apart from DR3 for a tap in birdie. IMO this is the top 1 shotter at BH while the best short holes are still to come at Dismal. BH 1 up after 3.


I think Dismal is about to stage a rally.

[Jason Connor]

Is this true?  As a non-admirer of the Nicklaus courses I've played these two paragraphs totally amused me.


Jeff Beier, the PGA certified director of membership, said Nicklaus Design strived to create a golf experience that the member wouldn't see back home. Take for instance No. 4, a 578-yard par 5. A remnant of the cattle-ranch days, the site included a windmill and stock pond.

"Initially they designed it with the green 20 yards left of the windmill, but when Jack came out, he said move the green directly behind the windmill, thus creating the only water hazard on the course," Beier explained. "The hole also has the largest natural blowout area, which was perfect for a risk-reward route to the green."

(from http://www.worldgolf.com/course-reviews/nebraska/dismal-river-club-mullen-10542.htm)

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I think Dismal has the better of two really poor names.

[Bruce Wellmon]

"Initially they designed it with the green 20 yards left of the windmill, but when Jack came out, he said move the green directly behind the windmill, thus creating the only water hazard on the course," Beier explained. "The hole also has the largest natural blowout area, which was perfect for a risk-reward route to the green."

This photo is from a side view, but, I think you can see the windmill isn't in the line of play unless you are hitting your second from in the bunker or on the extreme left side of the fairway. IMO, the second shot play is to the right anyway where there is lots of room.

[Mac Plumart]

I think Dismal has the better of two really poor names.

Wasn't Mike looking for feedback from people who've played both courses?

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have played both.  Dismal four times three years ago (so before some of the recent work was completed) and Ballyhack a couple of dozen times.  Both provide holes you have never seen.  I think the par threes and short par fours at DR are some of Nicklaus' most inventive. Number ten must have been life altering for him.  Hard to believe he actually designed the hole.  Ballyhack is inventive all the way around.  I joined Ballyhack but if I got out to the middle of nowhere more I would take out a membership at DR.  I enjoy them both.  Which one is better?  Can't decide.  They bring different things out of my game.  Both test my  ability to strategize and think outside the box. Ballyhack's terrain is more dramatic and must have been more challenging to route.  i would love to have been inside Lester's head when he was coming up with the routing.

[Chris DeNigris]

Keeping this alive in the hope that there can be more discussion about 2 of my favorite modern courses. Both are big, brawny and bold... occupy some seriously interesting terrain and are somewhat controversial.

Hole number 4- two of the more interesting and controversial holes on each course. How good is BH4? Is it's potential greatness hurt by the seemingly flawed split fairway design or saved by the incredible green complex? Is DR4 a great par 5 or merely just a fantastically fun hole to play? Does the windmill make or break?

[Tommy Williamsen]

Never is choosing the correct tee more important than at Ballyhack 4.  The play is to keep the ball left and drive it past the dual fairway and down the hill where the two meet.  To play the ball from a tee that doesn't allow that makes the hole too tight and the shot into the green is way to difficult. The second shot on that hole is one of the best shots on the course. At Dismal I find the fourth one of the weaker holes on the course.  The windmill, as far as I am concerned, is just a non-entity. 

[Josh Tarble]

Some more pictures would make this far more interesting!

I think some of the most interesting comparisons are courses that look completely different but play similar.  Having only seem pictures of both, that seems like it could be the case.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Ok here are a few pictures of Ballyhack.

#1 difficult to see how uphill the hole is


#3 par three any where from 150-230


#5 400 yards


Second shot into #4 anywhere from 180-130


#6 short par four 320 yards
 

Looking back from the green on the par five ninth


150 yard par four 17th

[Chris DeNigris]

Tom,

Great pics! Thanks for posting them.

As for the tee shot on BH4, agree totally about playing from the right teebox. But it seems that a lot of balls that are played far enough left to miss the center trouble and struck well enough to crest the top plateau often find the left rough. And missing the fairway left makes that approach over the ravine a real dicey shot. I've only played it a half dozen times so maybe I need to increase my sample size to make a better assessment.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()