[Matt_Ward]

Robert:

Like your list because it's so similar to mine.

However ...

When you expand the boundary to a max just under 6,700 yards it really defeats the purpose because the listing is meant to highlight courses that aren't really long.

One other thing ...

There is no way in God's green earth that the likes of Canoe Brook / South and / or White Beeches can remotely sniff the quality of Montclair #2 & #4 nines. Not even close. Ditto with the like of Deal. You also left out Convent Station's Morris County GC -- a real gem for a Seth Raynor design.

I can say your choice of Essex Fells is a bit better -- you could have also mentioned another Jersey course with the likes of Wayne's North Jersey CC.

I personally think the work George Thomas did w Spring Lake is better -- gets little fanfare given the amount of attention that Hollywood draws when in the immediate area.

One last comment for now -- Siwanoy is the better of the two when you throw Apawamis against it. Better terrain and better consistency of holes throughout the round.

Just shows the utter depth of courses within the region.

[Mike_Cirba]

Have to mention after being on site for the playing of the NJ PGA Championship the fantastic overall elements of Essex County CC in West Orange.

Hats off to Gil Hanse and George Bahto for the superlative efforts they have done to reassert the tremendous architectural elements that have always been present at this famed club. The design elements of Tillinghast and Banks are part and parcel of the course. Best of all, the weaknesses of the front side have been strengthened - they are not on par with the fantastic back nine but they reduce the disparity greatly between them.

For those who venture to the NY / NJ metro area a visit if possible to ECCC should be a mist item. Candidly, the course has the goods to be considered for Golfweek's top 100 classic designs.

Matt,

I absolutely agree.   It's a terrific course made much better in recent years by the continued progress on the Hanse/Bahto Master Plan, which is about 90% implemented.

It's also a tough son-of-a-gun, but one with grace and charm.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

The issue for me is that far too often people -- this includes many non area people -- see the Garden State as the home of just a very few number of stellar courses.

No doubt PV takes plenty of attention as it should. But then you have people who erroneously think Baltusrol is the next best in the state. Candidly, there haven been major strides in recent times by a full range of clubs within NJ to bolster / reinvigorate what they have.

Essex County CC in West Orange is nothing short of a tremendous success in this regard and I salute the club's leadership in hiring Hanse / Bahto for bringing to full life all the elements that Tillinghast, Raynor and lastly Banks provided.

The back nine at Essex County was always first rate -- the front nine has been strengthened without being overly fixated on the difficulty meter.

Mike, there's plent of grace and charm there -- the issue now is for raters and everyone else to make sure they include that West Orange gem on their short list of "must plays" when in the area.

As you well know -- they will not be disappointed.

[Matt_Ward]

A few people wanted me to put the courses that are under 6,600 yards in some sort of groupings ...

In alpha order ...

1st Group

Fenway
Fisher's Island
Maidstone
Montclair #2 & #4
Sleepy Hollow

2nd Group

CC of Fairfield
The Creek
Morris County
Somerset Hills
Westhampton

3rd Group

Huntington
Knollwood
Old Oaks
Seawane
Southward Ho!

4th Group

Cold Spring
Gardiner's Bay
Rockaway Hunting Club
Siwanoy
Spring Lake


There's no doubt a few others could make the final group since a number of them are quite close -- e.g. Essex Fells, North Jersey, Shackamaxon, etc, etc.

[Greg Stebbins]

Matt,

Fenway needs come off this list as it has certainly passed 6600 yards in recent years.  At par 70 with two par 4's less than 300 yards, it certainly doesn't play short either.

Might I suggest sliding Mt. Kisco into the list?

Wait until next spring to take a look at Essex County again as there are still many trees on the chopping block this fall.  In addition, fairway and green space will be reclaimed on a number of holes, new back tees will be added on some of the longer holes, and about 8 fairway bunkers will be restored.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt,

I think you have to differentiate between par 70, par 71 and par 72 courses.

Surely a par 70 golf course, like Westhampton, is more difficult than most par 72 golf courses in excess of 6,600 but under 6,800.

Likewise with Montclair and others.

[Matt_Ward]

Greg:

Fair point - I stand corrected. The "new" official yardage for Fenway is not listed at 6,742 yards and thus is not eligible for the listing.

Excellent choice -- I simply had for gotten about Mount Kisco -- for those not in the know the layout plays just over 6,500 yards from the tips and comes in with a healthy 72.0 rating and 142 slope -- the slope element is one of the highest in the Met region for a course of such minimal length.

For those who have not been there -- a network of streams comes into play on roughly 13 holes and makes for a wonderful array of holes.

Thanks Greg for the mention.

One last question -- do you see Mount Kisco having more compelling architecture than the likes of Knollwood, Old Oaks and Siwanoy -- since all are in Westchester County? I have my thoughts but would like to get yours and any other person who might want to weigh in.

Pat:

No doubt a differentiation can take place with reference to a par designation. However, keep in mind I simply decided to use a par designation. No doubt there are times when a par-72 may play "easier" than courses with a par-70 designation likely because of the lesser number of par-5's available to be played.

[Matt_Ward]

Interesting to see The Met Golfer highlight Pelham (it's celebrating 100 years of existence) -- one of the better courses for layout with minimum length -- not even 6,400 yards from the tips. The par-3 2nd is without question one of the best par-3 holes not only in Westchester but throughout the metro area.

Be interesting to hear from people who have played there and whether others see it being one of the 25 best for layouts less than 6,600 yards. I see it as a close call.

[Matt_Ward]

With all the talk concerning The Creek on a few other threads I find it amusing when people say The Creek should be rated higher than it is. No doubt a case can be made -- but at least The Creek is rated.

The metro listing I posted contains a few notable layouts that get at best minimum attention -- e.g. Essex County, Forsgate, Montclair for NJ; Metropolis from NY and CC of Fairfield from CT are a few others to note as well.

Clearly, a few of the courses mentioned in the metro area get justifiable rave reviews -- but there are others, beyond the next level down such as The Creek and Piping Rock, which are also well worth saluting.

[David_Madison]

I haven't seen Alpine mentioned anywhere here. It's been awhile since I last played it, but I remember a number of very challenging and interesting holes (#'s 1 and 10 come to mind), and some of the greens were close to impossible but in a fun way.

[Matt_Ward]

David M:

You may not have looked through this entire post but Alpine was one of the top 50 I mentioned.

The course hosted the NJ State Open this year and while a few of the competitors harped about some of the greens being unfair -- notably the 10th and 17th, the rest of the field was impressed with the Tillinghast layout.

Alpine gets little attention locally because of the fanfare paid to nearby Ridgewood. Others who have not played it should check it out when in the area.

[David_Madison]

Thanks Matt. I must have missed it from early in the post. Only played Alpine a couple of times, but thoroughly enjoyed it.

[Matt_Ward]

David:

That's one of the issues that needs more attention -- there are more than a few courses in the greater NYC metro area that get far too little attention.

Most of the people who visit generally only mention the usual top tier suspects.

The sheer depth is truly unique and quite special.

[Matt_Ward]

Wanted to add this bit of info to the interest in the Plainfield update -- people who visit NJ often miss so many of the "second" tier roster of layouts that get so little outside attention (interest from beyond 75 mile radius) -- I would include the following trio -- two of which are in the same town.

Essex County CC (West Orange)

Hats off to Hanse & Bahto for taking the course to an even higher level. The back nine has always been rightly noted but the sheer totality of the place has now really made significant improvements. Only issue is the need to keep the rough from being too high and too dense. No need to use such a crutch mechanism when such a pure design is present.

Montclair GC (West Orange) / #2 & #4 Nines

A mixed layout with one nine by Donald Ross -- the other by Charles Banks. Proved itself against tough competition when it hosted the '85 US Amateur and for a number of years the US Open sectional qualifier for the NYC metro area. Tough greens and a terrain that features 250 feet of elevation. Arguably, the toughest layout in NJ for a course that doesn't exceed 6,600 yards and at a tough par of 70.

Forsgate (Monroe Twsp) / Banks Course

Hats off to RDM Management (the owners of the layout) and the contributions made by architect Stephen Kay -- the remodeled 17th hole with its renowned Biaritz green is something to behold. Some of the more unique holes created by Charles Banks and the quartet of par-3 holes is only surpassed by the likes of you see at Pine Valley. Ditto the classic back-to-back par-5's with the superlative uphill 8th hole and the do-or-die go-for-it 9th hole.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

I'd add Sleepy Hollow to your list.

Since the renovation/restoration, it's really, really superb and much improved.

Agree with your Essex County call, as well.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

The sad reality is that few people really explore below the "usual" suspects in a given area. Sleepy Hollow is to be rightly celebrated as well as the other layouts I have mentioned.

The thing to keep in mind is that more attention and focus needs to be made to those courses that do improve. Glad to see Digest add a category in this area for recognition but it needs to be handled through one person rather than a general committee in my mind in order to have better consistency and interpretation.

[Jerry Kluger]

Matt:

My experience at Montclair is limited but I thought the green speeds were a bit over the top considering the amount of slope/contour - caddie said it was because Reese wanted them that fast - I cannot imagine that the architects ever envisioned them being at such speeds.

I always thought of Somerset Hills as one of the great courses in NJ, right up there with Plainfield - I only played it once but I was impressed. 

You know I'm a huge fan of Essex County

Jerry

[Matt_Ward]

Jerry:

A few quick comments ...

When you talk about green speed / re: Montclair -- I do agree things can get quite speedy there -- but frankly, I've played Somerset Hills when things are no less swift and equally borderline.

I also don't know what specific nines you played at Montclair. From my experience with Jersey courses I'd say Montclair #2 & #4 nines feature the more compelling architecture when compared with the layout from Bernardsville. One other thing to do keep in mind -- the finishing two holes at Somerset Hills are major letdowns.

If you see Somerset Hills as "great" then candidly I'd have to say places like Essex County, Forsgate and the two nines I mentioned from Montclair are even greater.

[Matt_Ward]

Be curious to know what metro courses people see as being overrated ?

No doubt, a few of them would still be rated high -- but likely for a bunch of reasons tied to
other elements -- the tradition argument is often used for this purpose.

I'll kick the ball off with this trio ... one from NJ, Westchester and Long Island.

Baltusrol

Club gets high marks for staying in the picture of major champ play with its recent involvement w the PGA but the Lower is still a bore in so many ways. The land is fairly uneventful and there's little on the architecture side that is compelling.

If anything the Upper is the more fun course to play but I don't see it as being remarkably unique either.

Quaker Ridge

I like the course -- just not as much as others. It helps to be in the neighborhood with places like Winged Foot but QR is not as compelling as the Jersey equivalent with Plainfield but for some reason the Garden State layout never gets mentioned as highly as the Scarsdale course.

Maidstone

I've mentioned my comments on this course a number of times. No doubt the oceanside holes are really something -- most especially the par-4 9th -- a hole I would have on my short list for great American holes. However ... and this where many of the fans of Maidstone develop amnesia -- there are a number of so-so holes and a few which are nothing more than filler between others.

[Matt_Ward]

I had rated BB quite highly originally but frankly the desire to provide the golf equivalent of Barry Bonds -- has made me less of a fan -- and for me to say such a thing really hurts to say.

The penchant for a US Open has become more and more of extending tees until they jump the hedges and have you hitting from a nearby neighbor's porch.

One of the more striking comments Tom Doak has previously made is that a really stellar layout cannot be considered world class without at least one superlative short par-4 in its routing. I agree.

BB is a fastball oriented course to use a baseball metaphor. There are few change of speeds that are especially noteworthy -- unforunately there could have been options but again the impulse for mega length is the game plan.

A re-assessment of courses is healthy and likely others can weigh in with their own situations. I will likely repost my list later this year as I plan on returning to a number of them.

[Dan Byrnes]

I had rated BB quite highly originally but frankly the desire to provide the golf equivalent of Barry Bonds -- has made me less of a fan -- and for me to say such a thing really hurts to say.

The penchant for a US Open has become more and more of extending tees until they jump the hedges and have you hitting from a nearby neighbor's porch.

One of the more striking comments Tom Doak has previously made is that a really stellar layout cannot be considered world class without at least one superlative short par-4 in its routing. I agree.

BB is a fastball oriented course to use a baseball metaphor. There are few change of speeds that are especially noteworthy -- unforunately there could have been options but again the impulse for mega length is the game plan.

A re-assessment of courses is healthy and likely others can weigh in with their own situations. I will likely repost my list later this year as I plan on returning to a number of them.

Matt,

I would be interested if much has changed in your initial top 50 from 2008.  Not that there is much new but there has been a lot of renovations and changes in conditioning since this list was originally complied.  I enjoyed reading the discussion in this thread and would be interested in reading an update if you have the time and interest in ding so.

thanks

Dan

[Gene Greco]

    I would think since the magnificent restoration, Southampton Golf Club would land in the 2nd ten of courses under 6600yds. It is surely as good as Westhampton and CC of Fairfield, both Raynors as well.

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