Your Top 20 Favourites (or Best) in ENGLAND

[Adam Lawrence]

Sean et al,

I'm always slightly surprised by your love for Hockley. That isn't to say it's poor, far from it, but with Hayling, Stoneham and Liphook all sitting within Hampshire, Hockley wouldn't be the course I'd immediately recommend.

One course I completely agree with you about is Camberley Heath. Why this Colt gem doesn't get more recognition is beyond me.  

Hockley has the potential to be the best downland course in the UK, bar none, and with Glenn Kirby as its head greenkeeper, I think it will get there in time. It's a remarkable piece of property that is currently spoiled by crappy trees and a few dodgy design decisions. In five years I reckon it will be pretty fabulous.

[Paul Gray]

Sean et al,

I'm always slightly surprised by your love for Hockley. That isn't to say it's poor, far from it, but with Hayling, Stoneham and Liphook all sitting within Hampshire, Hockley wouldn't be the course I'd immediately recommend.

One course I completely agree with you about is Camberley Heath. Why this Colt gem doesn't get more recognition is beyond me.  

Hockley has the potential to be the best downland course in the UK, bar none, and with Glenn Kirby as its head greenkeeper, I think it will get there in time. It's a remarkable piece of property that is currently spoiled by crappy trees and a few dodgy design decisions. In five years I reckon it will be pretty fabulous.

A very bold statement Adam.

Truth be told, I can barely remember the course. You have made my mind up to visit asap.

[Michael Felton]

My list of top 20 in alphabetical order because I'm not brave enough to try to list them any other way. It's only courses that I've played

Addington
Burnham & Berrow
Formby
Hankley Common
Hunstanton
Littlestone
Notts
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal Liverpool
Royal St Georges
Royal West Norfolk
Rye
Saunton East
Sunningdale New
Sunningdale Old
Swinley Forest
Walton Heath New
Walton Heath Old
Wentworth East
Worplesdon

[Sean_A]

Sean et al,

I'm always slightly surprised by your love for Hockley. That isn't to say it's poor, far from it, but with Hayling, Stoneham and Liphook all sitting within Hampshire, Hockley wouldn't be the course I'd immediately recommend.

One course I completely agree with you about is Camberley Heath. Why this Colt gem doesn't get more recognition is beyond me.  

Paul

I am not saying Hockley is a world beater, but I like many of the holes. I like the beginning four hole climb, especially 2 & 4.  The course has a good set of 3s, and a few very good short 4s.  The only parts I don't care for are a few par 5s (surprise surprise) and some needless vegetation.  

I would like to go back dome day, its been a while.  maybe I shall wait til after the winter work.

Camberley Heath is in a tough neighbourhood, but jeez, anybody around London on a budget should make it a high priority.

Ciao

[Sean_A]

Are there anymore best ofs out there? 

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:

How does Rye go from 2* to out of your top 20?

I will have a list for you shortly.

[Tom_Doak]

Top 20 in England according to the new Confidential Guide (based on consensus Doak scale rating):

Royal St. George's
Rye
Royal Worlington & Newmarket
Swinley Forest
Sunningdale (Old)

Sunningdale (New)
St.George's Hill
Walton Heath (Old)
Woodhall Spa

West Sussex
Royal Lytham & St. Annes
Ganton

Notts
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal West Norfolk
Royal Liverpool

St. Enodoc
Stoneham
Kington


That's 19 courses that received an average score of 7 or higher.  After the first five, the groupings are ties.

I recognize that we are not trying to recognize exactly the same thing ... esp. if you are putting courses you rated no stars above others you rated two stars.  That does call your methodology into question a little bit!

[Sean_A]

Sean:

How does Rye go from 2* to out of your top 20?

I will have a list for you shortly.

Tom

Rye bites the dust for my favourites because it yet again raised its green fee - its too expensive to really be one of my favourites. 

You, myself and Mark are about the only ones who have Kington anywhere near as high as top 20 in England - for me its about 25ish, but easily my favourite course in the country.  Your Stoneham ranking really surprises me.  I have it maybe 40-45 in England.  I am shocked not to see Formby and Alwoodley in the top 20 - poor form  .

Ciao

[Bart Bradley]

Top 20 in England according to the new Confidential Guide (based on consensus Doak scale rating):

Royal St. George's
Rye
Royal Worlington & Newmarket
Swinley Forest
Sunningdale (Old)

Sunningdale (New)
St.George's Hill
Walton Heath (Old)
Woodhall Spa

West Sussex
Royal Lytham & St. Annes
Ganton

Notts
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal West Norfolk
Royal Liverpool

St. Enodoc
Stoneham
Kington


That's 19 courses that received an average score of 7 or higher.  After the first five, the groupings are ties.

I recognize that we are not trying to recognize exactly the same thing ... esp. if you are putting courses you rated no stars above others you rated two stars.  That does call your methodology into question a little bit!

Tom

Very surprised Alwoodley did not make this list.  How did it score ?

Bart

[Tom_Doak]

Alwoodley had three 7's and a 6 -- as did a half-dozen other courses that would be tied for 20th spot.

Formby had two 7's and a 6 -- Ran has not been there, or else he forgot to vote on it.

P.S.  I do NOT intend to rank courses within the book, if someone wants to do the math they'll have to do it on their own.  Part of the reason is that it's obvious even from the limited sample above that "average score" is not the be-all and end-all.  Kington and Stoneham got one "7" -- from me -- and no other votes.  Alwoodley got three 7's (including my own) and a 6, and that puts it lower when you rank by average, even though there is more evidence in favor of it overall.

[Bill_McBride]

Alwoodley had three 7's and a 6 -- as did a half-dozen other courses that would be tied for 20th spot.

Formby had two 7's and a 6 -- Ran has not been there, or else he forgot to vote on it.

P.S.  I do NOT intend to rank courses within the book, if someone wants to do the math they'll have to do it on their own.

How can you have a Top 20 with only 19?

[Tom_Doak]

Alwoodley had three 7's and a 6 -- as did a half-dozen other courses that would be tied for 20th spot.

Formby had two 7's and a 6 -- Ran has not been there, or else he forgot to vote on it.

P.S.  I do NOT intend to rank courses within the book, if someone wants to do the math they'll have to do it on their own.

How can you have a Top 20 with only 19?

(a)  I'm not making a top 20 ranking, and
(b)  There were six courses tied for 20th, I didn't list them all.

[Ryan Coles]

Stoneham is not one usually mentioned in the upper echelons. Are there any photo tours on the site?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Stoneham is not one usually mentioned in the upper echelons. Are there any photo tours on the site?

Reports from this site have always made Stoneham a need to see for me.

On another point, I'm glad to see West Sussex receiving the love ahead of many other heathlands in The Confidential Guide.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Stoneham over Burnham and Saunton? Kington will raise some eyebrows too. No Berkshire? No Hunstanton? I must admit I always had the Doak scale pretty much on it but thats weird.

Cant say I have heard of anyone saying Stoneham being in the top drawer, not in many top 100s let alone 20.

Wentworth is still top 20 in England, not in says its not top 60 GB & I. That cant be right. If you have Stoneham above Wentworth you need sectioning!

This hatred for Wentworth is becoming ridiculous.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Royal Worlington is a good course, but #3 in England is stretching it by miles. I also cannot for the life of me see Ganton better than a whole host of great links courses like St. Enodoc, Deal, Saunton. It's just not interesting enough. And Rye the 2nd best course in England, well there has got to be some sentimental thing going on

Ulrich

[Ryan Coles]

1. Sunningdale Old/New
3. St Georges Hill
4. Berkshire Red
5. Royal St Georges
6. Royal Birkdale
7. Formby
8. Hankley Common
9. Berkshire Blue
10. Royal Lytham
11. Hoylake
12. West Hill
13. New Zealand
14. Woking
15. Wentworth West
16. Saunton East
17. Broadstone
18. Worplesdon
19. Saunton West
20. Remedy Oak

Updated: new criteria: Where would I like to play tomorrow?

[Sean_A]

Stoneham is not one usually mentioned in the upper echelons. Are there any photo tours on the site?

Ryan 

See the Stoneham link below.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30823.0.html

Ulrich

Tom is in good company concerning Worly  .

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Ulrich,

I am not saying that Ganton is better but it is as good as any of the courses you mention. If it were a true links it would be top 3 material.

Jon

[Ryan Coles]

Thanks Sean, looks nice. Despite TD's ranking, I'm keener to play Blackmoor and Liphook before Stoneham. And probably North Hants & Hindhead as well.

[Jud_T]

From a GCA perspective, I'm surprised there isn't even more interest in Worly here, it's certainly near the top of my list of places to see.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Spose if I am going to mouth off I should do mine:
1   ROYAL BIRKDALE
2   ROYAL ST GEORGES
3   SUNNINGDALE OLD
4   ROYAL LYTHAM & ST ANNES
5   WOODHALL SPA HOTCHKIN
6   SUNNINGDALE NEW
7   WENTWORTH WEST
8   ROYAL LIVERPOOL
9   SAUNTON EAST
10   WALTON HEATH OLD
11   ROYAL CINQUE PORTS
12   WEST SUSSEX
13   HUNSTANTON
14   RYE
15   HANKLEY COMMON
16   GANTON
17   WOBURN MARQUESS
18   THE BERKSHIRE RED
19   FORMBY
20   BROADSTONE

[Ryan Coles]

Woburn the one that jumps out there Adrian, and the Marquess course too. Don't hear much praise for Woburn on here.

[Tom_Doak]

Stoneham over Burnham and Saunton? Kington will raise some eyebrows too. No Berkshire? No Hunstanton? I must admit I always had the Doak scale pretty much on it but thats weird.

Cant say I have heard of anyone saying Stoneham being in the top drawer, not in many top 100s let alone 20.

Wentworth is still top 20 in England, not in says its not top 60 GB & I. That cant be right. If you have Stoneham above Wentworth you need sectioning!

Adrian:

Perhaps I'm slightly too enthusiastic on Stoneham, but its position on this "top 20" is exaggerated because I'm the only one who saw it and I was very pleasantly surprised.  That is exactly why such rankings are so ridiculous.  If you look at Saunton's ratings from the four of us [7 7 7 6] vs. Stoneham [7 - - -] you do not get upset at all, you just think I've got Stoneham one point too high.  Most of the other courses you mentioned get a 7 from at least one of us, but more 6's than 7's.  They are all worth playing.

Wentworth is another story.  None of us have been back since they tried to make the finishing hole look like the TPC at Sawgrass, or any of the other changes, so we don't really have a rating for it.  I did not have it in the top 20 in England before the changes -- it would have a hard time scraping into my top 50, to be honest -- so I am not too concerned that we are missing the boat.  

[Adrian_Stiff]

Woburn the one that jumps out there Adrian, and the Marquess course too. Don't hear much praise for Woburn on here.

If I stretched my top 20 into a 50 I would have quite a lot of newer ones, there seems to be courses that 'raters' like and courses that 'good players' like sometimes they match up, sometimes not, but I liked the Marquess and the Dukes.