David Fay on Opening of Masterpieces to Non-Members

[Mark Chaplin]

"And, what kind of deranged individual would deny me the pleasure of calling misguided posters, morons, cretins and imbiciles ?
Where's your sense of humor ?"

Pat - as pointed out in a previous reply the use of the word cretin is offensive and bigoted language so I will challenge your so called "pleasure". It is possible to have some banter here without offending.

[Joe Sponcia]

Joe if I play reciprocal golf which I've done a number of times this year and on world top 100 courses I pay no fee whatsoever. That's what we call reciprocal not somewhere your pro can call and you still pay $200+.

Semi private clubs tend to be owned by an individual have members but allow anyone to play. Private clubs in the UK are not on that model.

We are divided by a common language.

Mr. Chaplin,

My experience has been the same.  I always expect to pay something, however, it seems the better the course, the less likely they are to charge a fee much more than a cart (which is a shock to many).  I think the well run clubs feel it is cheap looking on their part to do so?  I do feel it is proper, when a pro/member extends the courtesy, to buy something in the pro shop, which I always do.

[Joe Sponcia]

  
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[Eric Smith]

For some reason, this incident at Altmore CC comes to mind.

[JLahrman]

"And, what kind of deranged individual would deny me the pleasure of calling misguided posters, morons, cretins and imbiciles ?
Where's your sense of humor ?"

Pat - as pointed out in a previous reply the use of the word cretin is offensive and bigoted language so I will challenge your so called "pleasure". It is possible to have some banter here without offending.

Additionally, the word is spelled "imbecile".

[Michael Essig]

As you may note, this is my first posting on this site, despite being an avid reader of the same.  As this discussion has appeard to die down, I offer a "few" words.  As evidenced by the statements made over the past few days, this issue exposes strong feelings.  If anything comes from this, I hope those individuals that are members of certain clubs realize that some of us who are not as fortunate to play those courses see how much joy it would bring to us to have the opportunity, and therefore, reach out more often than they may have in the past to share the opportunity.

I love to play great courses, and regularly shell out large sums to play at places that will have me: Bandon, Pebble, Wailea, Kapalua, etc.  But notice, they are all courses open to the public/resort courses.  It isn't the money, it is the access.  When I was fortunate enough to buy a Porsche a few years ago, I regularly gave the keys to my friends and said go take it for a spin. I knew that it was something they weren't going to have in their lives (for many different reasons; usually a wife not as understanding as mine).  But they all came back with a big smile on their face, and that was the whole point - to give them something they wouldn't or couldn't give themselves.  Isn't that the perfect gift?  And what did it cost me?  Nothing.  Providing the opporunity costs nothing.

Understand, I am not talking about anyone treating me to a round; I am more then willing to pay as is everyone I know.  I am already shelling out money to Mr. Keiser so I have no problem handing it over to a member. 

In conclusion, next time your headed out to your iconic club or even something less, think about the fact that maybe someone you know might like the opporuinty, because it may be the only opportunity they ever get.  Cheers.

[Jud_T]

Michael,

Welcome aboard.  You jumped right into the deep end!  If there's any attitude perceived here it's probably due to the fact that most of us here who belong to "desirable" clubs have gone, and continue to go, out of our way to host guests extensively at our clubs, GCA affiliated or otherwise.  This is in addition to donating to many fine charities, sponsoring caddie scholarships, Q school bids, junior golf programs, golf staff personal issues etc. only to be berated as the dreaded 1% who should be chastised for belonging to such antiquated bastions of exclusivity.  End of rant.  Welcome to Thunderdome.  1500 enter, noone leaves (of their own accord)...

[Michael Essig]

Of the people that would read this post on this website - people that care about the game of golf - I hope that they similarly create opportunities for the public.  As I read all of the posts, the core issue underlying the "discussion" was sharing the experience.  On behalf of the Porsche driving 99%, Jud, thank you for sharing.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Many, if not most clubs make Monday's Caddy's and local day.
Many, if not most clubs host the local high school teams.
Many, if not most clubs host charity events, open to the public.
Many, if not most clubs host local community events.

How are the legal ramifications of these actions any different from unescorted guests?

Pete,

Typically, the sponsoring entity, the charity, or other entity, takes on some or all of the liability, contractually.

Not so when you open your doors to the public and individuals.
Cart rental might be the exception where the renter has to sign a waiver.

In addition, the nature of the entity and the golfers within that entity differ from the general public.
Tell me that you understand that difference !

High school kids can't buy or consume alcohol on the premises, which makes the a prefered risk, along with their inherent nature.

I just don't understand how you cretins, morons and imbeciles don't understand the legal pitfalls associated with an unregulated, unorganized general public, versus formal visitors ( those in and out of tuxedos)

[Patrick_Mucci]

"And, what kind of deranged individual would deny me the pleasure of calling misguided posters, morons, cretins and imbiciles ?
Where's your sense of humor ?"

Pat - as pointed out in a previous reply the use of the word cretin is offensive and bigoted language so I will challenge your so called "pleasure".


Perhaps you should consult a dictionary and look up ALL of the definitions of the word.
Alternatively, you can take your politically correct nonsense and shove it where the sun don't shine.

It is possible to have some banter here without offending.

What's the fun in that ?
Only morons, cretins and imbeciles who take themselves too seriously are offended.

[Patrick_Mucci]

BTW..I wonder how many private clubs the ex linebacker coach at Penn State played...

Just watch the number of lawsuits that leap from that unfortunate situation.
Just watch who gets sued, individually and institutionally.

Then, maybe the risk factor will start to dawn on the morons, cretins and imbeciles arguing for an open door policy.

Pat...most private clubs have weddings.  Members invite guests.  Does that not open the club to liability?

Yes, it does.
And to diminish that risk, contracts are signed, where the sponsoring member assumes those risks.

What makes you think that a private club member is less apt to be a pedophile than a guest?

The vetting process and the member's relationship with a vast number of members.
That's not to say that members aren't capable of aberrant behavior, but, there are screening processes in place to filter them out.
Not so with the general public.

I'm enjoying the nonsensical propositions being put forth by all of you morons, cretins and imbeciles.
None of you have any board experience dealing with these issues, serious issues, yet you gloss over them as if they're non-existent.
And do you know why you do that ?
Because you're NOT at risk.
You don't have to make a decision that could result in serious financial adversity, to the club, to you and to your fellow members.
You have no skin in the game, so you just shoot your mouths off, without fear of consequence.

Tell you what.
Let us know your residence address, and let's have an open house at your residence, where the general public is invited on a Friday and Saturday night.

Who wants to start by supplying their home address and permission for us on GCA.com to announce to the world that you're having an open house on November 18th and 19th ?

Let me know when reality wakes you from your idealistic slumber.

Finally, name calling does not become anyone and it is frankly insulting to the retarded and others with disabilities.

I thought access to participation post 2005 was restricted to the retarded.
When were you granted access to GCA.com ?

As to name calling, those are terms of endearment with the group I've been playing with for 50 years

Cliff

[Tim Pitner]

If there's any attitude perceived here it's probably due to the fact that most of us here who belong to "desirable" clubs have gone, and continue to go, out of our way to host guests extensively at our clubs, GCA affiliated or otherwise.  This is in addition to donating to many fine charities, sponsoring caddie scholarships, Q school bids, junior golf programs, golf staff personal issues etc. only to be berated as the dreaded 1% who should be chastised for belonging to such antiquated bastions of exclusivity.  End of rant.  

Jud,

Recall that David Fay made this suggestion, not some (imagined?) municipal course golfer who both envies and despises members of private clubs.  

Maybe it's the Occupy protests that are causing people here to overreact--relax, no one is coming with pitchforks (and dressed in cargo shorts and untucked shirts) demanding access to your club.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim,

The pitch forks are OK, It's the caps with the bills turned backward that disturbs me.

[Michael Essig]

Patrick,
As an attorney, I understand your liability concerns, and have been as appalled as any member would be when I witnessed behavior at private clubs when I have been in attendance at weddings or other events.  Even more galling is seeing how people have treated my beautiful, luxury mountain home when they have had the privilege to spend time at it.  So I do get it. Why people treat other people's property with such disregard is incomprehensible to me.

However, on a recent visit to Monterey with my family including my son who wants to be a golf course architect, he and I were staring onto Cypress Point. I knew that the Cypress door will probably never be opened for me.  Yes, I could try and open it myself.  But as we stared out at the course with no one on it, it hurt a little that I probably will never get to play it despite being nearly empty many days of the year.  (So I suffered at Spyglass and Pasatiempo.). Meanwhile, an aquaintence of mine has been invited four times to Cypress but hasn't accepted any of the invitations. ("Other than your wife giving birth," I asked, "what excuse could you possibly have for not accepting the first invite let alone four?" He had no answer).

So, as I first posted, I just hope that members think about opening their doors a little, even if it is one invitation at a time.

[jeffwarne]

Patrick,
As an attorney, I understand your liability concerns, and have been as appalled as any member would be when I witnessed behavior at private clubs when I have been in attendance at weddings or other events.  Even more galling is seeing how people have treated my beautiful, luxury mountain home when they have had the privilege to spend time at it.  So I do get it. Why people treat other people's property with such disregard is incomprehensible to me.

However, on a recent visit to Monterey with my family including my son who wants to be a golf course architect, he and I were staring onto Cypress Point. I knew that the Cypress door will probably never be opened for me.  Yes, I could try and open it myself.  But as we stared out at the course with no one on it, it hurt a little that I probably will never get to play it despite being nearly empty many days of the year.  (So I suffered at Spyglass and Pasatiempo.). Meanwhile, an aquaintence of mine has been invited four times to Cypress but hasn't accepted any of the invitations. ("Other than your wife giving birth," I asked, "what excuse could you possibly have for not accepting the first invite let alone four?" He had no answer).

So, as I first posted, I just hope that members think about opening their doors a little, even if it is one invitation at a time.

Michael,
As your friend can attest
(and anyone who's ever played in a charity outing, on a charity gift certificate, as a member's guest,as a high school golf team member, on a pro's phone call or letter-yes this does happen at Cypress although far less than it used to-Cypress had a liberal unaccompanied policy for years) ......,members do open their doors a little.
The fact that you drove by an empty golf course does not mean that you were being excluded
Pebble Beach is just down the road, and no doubt you'll get your chance at Cypress and cherish it all the more.

[Jud_T]

If there's any attitude perceived here it's probably due to the fact that most of us here who belong to "desirable" clubs have gone, and continue to go, out of our way to host guests extensively at our clubs, GCA affiliated or otherwise.  This is in addition to donating to many fine charities, sponsoring caddie scholarships, Q school bids, junior golf programs, golf staff personal issues etc. only to be berated as the dreaded 1% who should be chastised for belonging to such antiquated bastions of exclusivity.  End of rant.  

Jud,

Recall that David Fay made this suggestion, not some (imagined?) municipal course golfer who both envies and despises members of private clubs.  

Maybe it's the Occupy protests that are causing people here to overreact--relax, no one is coming with pitchforks (and dressed in cargo shorts and untucked shirts) demanding access to your club.

Tim,

I was referring to the tone often taken here by some.  A sense of entitlement is a dangerous thing, at all ages and economic strata.  This goes for members, prospective members as well as golf social climbers. 

Pat,

Thanks for the chuckle.  They've been hard to come by here lately...

[Joe Sponcia]

If there's any attitude perceived here it's probably due to the fact that most of us here who belong to "desirable" clubs have gone, and continue to go, out of our way to host guests extensively at our clubs, GCA affiliated or otherwise.  This is in addition to donating to many fine charities, sponsoring caddie scholarships, Q school bids, junior golf programs, golf staff personal issues etc. only to be berated as the dreaded 1% who should be chastised for belonging to such antiquated bastions of exclusivity.  End of rant.  

Jud,

Recall that David Fay made this suggestion, not some (imagined?) municipal course golfer who both envies and despises members of private clubs.  

Mr. Jugerman,

That was a funny image...occupy cypress!

[Cliff Hamm]

Pat..let me attempt to educate you as to where those terms come from, although I fear you know, and just use them to exhibit your insensitivity.

Cretin comes from cretinism and for ease I will use the Wikpedia definition:

Cretinism is a condition of severely stunted physical and mental growth due to untreated congenital deficiency of thyroid hormones (congenital hypothyroidism) usually due to maternal hypothyroidism.

Moron and Imbecile are out of date terms used for the classification of those with retardation.  Moron was used for those with IQ's of 50-69, imbecile 20-49, and fyi idiot below 20.  These terms were replaced with mild, moderate, severe and profound because of their miss use by individuals like yourself.

Perhaps you would like to call others autistic if you think their social skills are lacking, cancer if they are balding as those in chemo lose their hair, etc.

Your insensitivity to others is frankly appalling.  It is acceptable to name call among your group of friends if no one finds offense.  But it is never acceptable to name call and utilize medical terms for those with disabilities.  It is the height of ignorance.

We have come a long way over the last 20 years or so in the acceptance of those with disabilities.  Unfortunately your comments are evidence that we have a long way to go.

[Jud_T]

so now we've become so politically correct that we can't even use the word idiot? where does one draw the line?

[Cliff Hamm]

Jud...Your point is perfectly valid.  For myself I draw the line when it offends others.  I don't find the term idiot offensive if used infrequently and probably one to one, not in writing.  Frankly, the terms imbecile and moron if infrequently used I also do not find offensive.  Again, to be used in jest person to person and not too often. Cretin crosses the line and to call someone a retard is absolutely unacceptable.  Choose for yourself....

It is not about being politically correct.  It is about not making fun, so to speak, of those with disabilities.  Again do you ever call anyone you autistic such and such?  Ask a parent of someone with retardation or a developmentally disabled adult what they think of the term retard being used.  Perhaps then you will have your answer.

[Mike Sweeney]

It is not about being politically correct.  It is about not making fun, so to speak, of those with disabilities.  Again do you ever call anyone you autistic such and such?  Ask a parent of someone with retardation or a developmentally disabled adult what they think of the term retard being used.  Perhaps then you will have your answer.

Cliff,

Just for the record, Pat Mucci has been one of the most if not the most charitable GCAers to a number of my Autistic son's charities. This started with Pat before I ever met him face to face. I did not take offense by what Pat wrote, but then again I know Pat's flaws.  He is a unique guy!!

[Mark Chaplin]

Mike I'm sure Mr Mucci is a unique guy, however Douglas Bader was a fine pilot who had a brown dog, the dog's name in 1940 was perfectly acceptable, in 2011 its not. Everyone who utters unacceptable language isn't a bigot or racist they are just "engaging in banter, give to charity, etc, etc." sometimes you have to accept you are wrong. Sadly Mr Mucci cannot accept that.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,
As an attorney, I understand your liability concerns, and have been as appalled as any member would be when I witnessed behavior at private clubs when I have been in attendance at weddings or other events.  Even more galling is seeing how people have treated my beautiful, luxury mountain home when they have had the privilege to spend time at it.  So I do get it. Why people treat other people's property with such disregard is incomprehensible to me.

Agreed.

However, on a recent visit to Monterey with my family including my son who wants to be a golf course architect, he and I were staring onto Cypress Point. I knew that the Cypress door will probably never be opened for me.  Yes, I could try and open it myself.  But as we stared out at the course with no one on it, it hurt a little that I probably will never get to play it despite being nearly empty many days of the year. 


Mike,

The problem with that line of reasoning is that there are or would be literally thousands of golfers making that same wish.

A club's utilization pattern shouldn't be the basis for outside access.
Having a limited utilization patter is what attracts golfers to certain clubs.
They want the convenience of arriving and playing when they want.
Conversely, the fewer the number of members the higher the cost per member to maintain the course.
That's a choice clubs make.
It's a choice that outsiders, read general public, have no say in.

(So I suffered at Spyglass and Pasatiempo.). Meanwhile, an aquaintence of mine has been invited four times to Cypress but hasn't accepted any of the invitations. ("Other than your wife giving birth," I asked, "what excuse could you possibly have for not accepting the first invite let alone four?" He had no answer).

Life isn't fair !
Golf isn't fair !
But, accessing property owned by others isn't an inherent right granted when we buy a set of golf clubs.

So, as I first posted, I just hope that members think about opening their doors a little, even if it is one invitation at a time.

It may have been California, and in particular, San Francisco that started Public Law # 9, whereby private facilities could be deemed "public" if they didn't adhere to or meet certain regulations.  Why would a private club want to risk being deemed "public" ?

[Dan Byrnes]

so now we've become so politically correct that we can't even use the word idiot? where does one draw the line?

I don't know just be careful about adding a color to calling someone an a$$

Dan

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat..let me attempt to educate you as to where those terms come from, although I fear you know, and just use them to exhibit your insensitivity.

Cliff, let me attempt to further your education, since your understanding of the derivation of words is rather limited.
Perhaps you've confused entomology with etymology.


Cretin comes from cretinism and for ease I will use the Wikpedia definition:

Cretinism is a condition of severely stunted physical and mental growth due to untreated congenital deficiency of thyroid hormones (congenital hypothyroidism) usually due to maternal hypothyroidism.

That's a rather archaic usage of the word, a usage that was abandoned many years ago.
"Cretin" is the english version of the French word, coined in 1750, "Chretien", meaning "Christian", in English.

That use was abandoned many years ago as "Cretin" transitioned from being a "medical" term to a term connoting, "disparaging", "derogatory" or "pejoritive" remarks, such as the ones I directed toward you, the "Marks" and others.


Moron and Imbecile are out of date terms used for the classification of those with retardation. 


Moron and Imbecile are not out of date terms.


Moron was used for those with IQ's of 50-69, imbecile 20-49, and fyi idiot below 20. 
These terms were replaced with mild, moderate, severe and profound because of their miss use by individuals like yourself.

NO, that's incorrect.
Obviously your sense or understanding of the "derivation" of words is rather limited.
Moron comes from a Greek word meaning “stupid.” Like you.

Imbecile derives from a Latin adjective having the sense of “weak” and entered English from an Old French word with the same meaning.

If you're going present yourself as an authority on word usage and derivation try expanding your research efforts beyond "Wikipedia"

Perhaps you would like to call others autistic if you think their social skills are lacking, cancer if they are balding as those in chemo lose their hair, etc.

You're dumber than I thought you were.
As to cancer patients, I'm in the midst of writing a book to help/guide cancer patients.
When the doctors told me I might lose my hair, due to chemo and radiation, I laughed at them.
Let's see, lose my hair or die ?  That may be a difficult choice for you, but, it wasn't for me.

Your insensitivity to others is frankly appalling. 

I am highly sensitive to those I respect.

It is acceptable to name call among your group of friends if no one finds offense. 

We all take offense to the remarks, that's the beauty of them.
But, only children and grandchildren are off limits.
If you don't have thick skin, you'll end up paying or bailing, and if you bail you have to pay.
Would you like to play with us ?

But it is never acceptable to name call and utilize medical terms for those with disabilities.  It is the height of ignorance.

No, the height of ignorance is confining the definition of a word or words to the definition you choose.

We have come a long way over the last 20 years or so in the acceptance of those with disabilities. 
Unfortunately your comments are evidence that we have a long way to go.

Please, spare us your drivel.
You have absolutely no idea as to what you're talking about.
But, that doesn't surprise me.

At least TEPaul was an "Idiot-Savant", you my friend are lacking in the "Savant" department.