David Fay on Opening of Masterpieces to Non-Members

[Mark_F]

Horseshit.

That's just more horseshit.

For someone making such a song and dance about the appalling behaviour of the unaccompanied great unwashed, you sure are doing a very good imitation of them. 

What if one of the successful balloters is a registered sex offender ?
A convicted felon ?

Funniest thing ever on this website. 

I would have thought that if one of the successful balloters was a registered sex offender or a convicted felon, the polite thing to do would be to shake their hand and say "I hope you are planning on running again, Congressman.  You've been an asset to the country."

How do you know if any member of your club, indeed someone you play with regularly, isn't a Crossdresser?  A Wife beater? A closet pothead? Once voted Democrat? Bought a Japanese car? Claimed a false deduction on his tax return one year?

Just out of curiousity, what do you imagine happens to a golf course if it is played by a registered sex offender? 

It would depend upon what type of sex offender they were, David.  A flasher might run through the bunkers without stopping to rake them, a rapist wouldn't keep to the cart paths, and a statutory rapist would play from the wrong tees.

[Sean_A]

Horseshit.

That's just more horseshit.

For someone making such a song and dance about the appalling behaviour of the unaccompanied great unwashed, you sure are doing a very good imitation of them. 

What if one of the successful balloters is a registered sex offender ?
A convicted felon ?

Funniest thing ever on this website. 

I would have thought that if one of the successful balloters was a registered sex offender or a convicted felon, the polite thing to do would be to shake their hand and say "I hope you are planning on running again, Congressman.  You've been an asset to the country."

How do you know if any member of your club, indeed someone you play with regularly, isn't a Crossdresser?  A Wife beater? A closet pothead? Once voted Democrat? Bought a Japanese car? Claimed a false deduction on his tax return one year?

Just out of curiousity, what do you imagine happens to a golf course if it is played by a registered sex offender? 

It would depend upon what type of sex offender they were, David.  A flasher might run through the bunkers without stopping to rake them, a rapist wouldn't keep to the cart paths, and a statutory rapist would play from the wrong tees.

Mark

I can hang with all the other stuff - it at least makes for interesting conversation,  BUT, buying a Japanese car?  That is well beyond the pale.  Talk about un-American - where is McCarthy when you need him? 

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

I believe Pine Valley opened their doors for two days and raised $500k after 9/11. How did they do it? Twenty page morality questionnaire? Photo, fingerprints and DNA? Pine Valley police following every group? US made cars only in the lot? Sterile area in the dining room?

Pat I'm sure in your eyes the place hasn't been the same since the great unwashed were invited through the door but surely this proves even in your privileged Boston, NY and Philly circles charity/golf visitors can work.

[Scott Warren]

Bizarre.

I don't see why any club should feel obliged to open up to non-members/guests, but I'm amazed and somewhat amused by Pat's "but what if a sex offender plays the course?!?!" argument.

[Mark Chaplin]

Scott as you well know its not the convicted sex offenders who are the problem. It's the people the authorities know nothing about.

[Jud_T]

Honestly I've seen some of the most offensive behavior by club members, but that doesn't mean we have, or should have, any say as to how they should share their club with the unwashed masses.

[Mike_Young]

Bowties make people say stupid things.

A person should invite who they want to their home or their club and it certainly doesn't need an article.

[Mark Chaplin]

Mike you are quite right at the end of the day we have different systems and each works pretty well. I accept privacy not the argument that the great unwashed public course golfer is unworthy of crossing the private threshold. I started my first 5 years of golf at a public course and now I'm a director of a Royal club.

[Patrick_Mucci]

What if one of the successful balloters is a registered sex offender ?
A convicted felon ?

Pat,

Just out of curiousity, what do you imagine happens to a golf course if it is played by a registered sex offender? 

The newspapers/media vilify it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Which days ? Specifically ?

Monday 26th March 2012

What about the other date ?  You said "two" days.

Let's assume it's a Boston, NY or Philly area club. ?

Sure, why not.  (You don't actually need to write that, Patrick.  After 11 years I am well aware that you only post in realtion to Boston, NY or Philly area private clubs. )
That's where most of the icon clubs are located, but that's not why I chose those areas.  I chose them for their weather patterns and their "golfing" season

What about the legal liabilities ?

There are none.you're wrong about that.  They abound.

What about the costs to keep the club open on those days ?

The club does this because it feels obligated for the betterment of the game and service to the community by raising money for charity.
Clubs already contribute to charitable and community causes.
You and others are uninformed and out of touch with u.s. Clubs.
Has TEPaul been advising you 

WHY would club want to displace it's dues paying members in favor of total strangers ?  Complete unknowns ?

 As above, because they felt an obligation to sharing their course with the greater golfing public in the interest of golf.

There is NO such obligation

Please note, I am not saying a course should want to do this.
But if they did want to open themselves up to some outside play, this may be the way to do it that provides least disruption to members or the status of the club.  

I think clubs already open themselves for play to the public  on a more productive basis by hosting charitable events.

A good number of icon clubs hold charitable events on Mondays
The public benefits, the charity benefits and the club benefits, it's a win, win, win for everyone.

Out of curiosity, do those advocating an open door policy to the public, allowing  complete strangers access and use of the facility,  employ the same open door policy with their residence ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Horseshit.

That's just more horseshit.

For someone making such a song and dance about the appalling behaviour of the unaccompanied great unwashed, you sure are doing a very good imitation of them. 

Not at all, I'm just categorizing your absurd, uninformed remarks in terms commensurate with their content and substance

What if one of the successful balloters is a registered sex offender ?
A convicted felon ?

Funniest thing ever on this website. 

I didn't think that you and others would understand the comment, and you didn't

I would have thought that if one of the successful balloters was a registered sex offender or a convicted felon, the polite thing to do would be to shake their hand and say "I hope you are planning on running again, Congressman.  You've been an asset to the country."

How do you know if any member of your club, indeed someone you play with regularly, isn't a Crossdresser?  A Wife beater? A closet pothead? Once voted Democrat? Bought a Japanese car? Claimed a false deduction on his tax return one year?

All irrelevant
Most clubs, in their bylaws, expel convicted felons and/or registered sex offenders.
The other activities you engage in aren't grounds for expulsion, but thanks for asking.

Just out of curiousity, what do you imagine happens to a golf course if it is played by a registered sex offender? 

It would depend upon what type of sex offender they were, David.  A flasher might run through the bunkers without stopping to rake them, a rapist wouldn't keep to the cart paths, and a statutory rapist would play from the wrong tees.

You're obviously ignorant with respect to Meghan's law.

Please Stick to responses on topics where you have a remote idea of what you're talking about.

Thanks

[Steve Lang]

Nothing against David Fay, but I wish one of these David Fay types (whether in politics or science or the arts) would every once in a while come out and say something when its actually useful and interesting (i.e contrary to the prevailing/conventional wisdom and practice of the day) instead of waiting to take a stand and make a point only after the train has left the station.  But it seems that the David Fays of the world don't get to be David Fays by bucking the conventional wisdom or by speaking out too soon and when they're the only ones doing so.  What's next, I wonder - an essay about preserving our great old courses in the face of runaway technology?

Peter

Peter,  Here Here..  excellent point!    Can't wait for the next essay.

I was struck by the quote below:

"There's not a single private golf club that has been the host of a U.S. Open in the past 30 years that allows visitors who aren't either playing with a member or sponsored by one. And the same is true for the majority of Golf Digest's America's 100 Greatest, where most of the courses on the list are private. (Disclosure: I am a member at a couple of those places.) "

Read More http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/2011-07/david-fay-private-clubs#ixzz1cw4LQeLU

Would one take away that the USGA needs to take it fully to "open status" and it takes the perspecitve of belonging to more than one "closed" club to be able to properly address this issue?  

Has anyone mentioned the generic UK club's desires for its members to gain access in other places?  The reciprocity concept has merit for "members" who will respect other clubs' grounds and policies more than the general public...

I for one would rather walk a course to study it rather than play it to study it.  I play for fun.  


 

[Kyle Harris]

"There's not a single private golf club that has been the host of a U.S. Open in the past 30 years that allows visitors who aren't either playing with a member or sponsored by one. And the same is true for the majority of Golf Digest's America's 100 Greatest, where most of the courses on the list are private. (Disclosure: I am a member at a couple of those places.) "

Isn't this a bit like saying: "There's not a human in the world that does not require the intake of oxygen gas to continue metabolic processes."

Seriously, that statement really has little meaning. They're private clubs - such policies are definitive as such.

[Jud_T]

I was struck by the quote below:

"There's not a single private golf club that has been the host of a U.S. Open in the past 30 years that allows visitors who aren't either playing with a member or sponsored by one. And the same is true for the majority of Golf Digest's America's 100 Greatest, where most of the courses on the list are private. (Disclosure: I am a member at a couple of those places.) "

How does this take reciprocal play into account?




 
[/quote]

[Patrick_Mucci]

I believe Pine Valley opened their doors for two days and raised $500k after 9/11. How did they do it?

Simple, I believe contributors paid  $ 4,000 to $ 10,000 to $ 25,000 per foursome
The price precluded the "general public" from participating.
I think you'll find that participants were well to do individuals, many of whom had already played PV or had/have access to PV

Twenty page morality questionnaire? Photo, fingerprints and DNA? Pine Valley police following every group? US made cars only in the lot? Sterile area in the dining room?

Pat I'm sure in your eyes the place hasn't been the same since the great unwashed were invited through the door but surely this proves even in your privileged Boston, NY and Philly circles charity/golf visitors can work.

You can't be that stupid, can you ?  ?  ?
The great unwashed ?
At $ 4,000 to $ 10,000 to $ 25,000 per foursome ?

You call that the "general public" ?

Do you open up your home to the general public twice a year ?
Do you allow total strangers unfettered access and use of your home ?

Do you belong to a private club?
If so, which one ?

 

[Jud_T]

Pat,

You're point is well taken, but frankly it's often the guy who can cut the check for $10k without blinking an eye who exhibits the most boorish behavior.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bizarre.

I don't see why any club should feel obliged to open up to non-members/guests, but I'm amazed and somewhat amused by Pat's "but what if a sex offender plays the course?!?!" argument.

Scott,

As I indicated, many, if not most clubs have automatic expulsion rules in their bylaws for convicted felons.

But, specific to the "sex offender" reference, what most of the morons responding  don't understand is that most clubs have swimming pools and children in the pool area.

Why would a club want to expose themselves to the risk and liability associated with effectively inviting a children's sexual predator to a target rich environment ?

Since there is NO "quality control" when admitting the general public, you risk having undesirables, from thieves to sexual predators.

Why would a club want to expose itself to the perils associated with an "Open Door" policy.

How many of the "public advocates" have locks on the doors to their homes ?
WHY do they have locks ?  What are they afraid of ?

Hope that helps

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

You're point is well taken, but frankly it's often the guy who can cut the check for $10k without blinking an eye who exhibits the most boorish behavior.

Jud,

Upon what information or data base do you base that statement on ?

Boorish behavior isn't tolerated at clubs, especially the "icon" clubs.

In general, highly educated, successful people conduct themselves properly at clubs, but there are exceptions.

[Ian Andrew]

I find this subject interesting largely due to people’s expectations.

I have received access to or have been offered access to every course I have ever wanted to see. The access has largely come by what I don’t ask for which is to play. I’ve played all but a couple of the courses I have seen because the offer to play has come after the fact through someone’s generosity.

I think one of the issues is approach. I always ask to walk, I only ask for a chance when it is convenient to them, I usually provide an introduction and often send a letter or make a call well in advance.

An email is such a cold approach and one that is so easy to ignore.

[Mark Chaplin]

Pat it is typical you think cash means class, if only it were that easy. There is one UK club that at one time charged a £25k initiation, the joke was you could tell the members as they were the ones with "love" and "hate" tattooed on their knuckles. They could join a club with cash but not on contacts.

As a police officer I'll say it again it's the sex offenders and criminals who've never be caught that are the problem not the convicted ones.

There are enough posts where my clubs are identified, a little digging will identify them to you.

[PThomas]

I don't know.  I am sure Pat doesn't mean to imply Americans are classless, but on the hand, I have seen the most outrageous behaviour on American courses.  The fact that the majority of the behaviour took place on public courses may ease the worry some, but I have seen a lot of club throwing, tee marker breaker and loud swearing on private courses as well. 
   

translation:  there are ass*&les everwhere!

[PThomas]

I'm always saddened by how many posters are willing to openly generalize and stereotype negatively about American culture. There's more than 300 million of us here and most are pretty decent people, many of whom have offered quite a bit to the world.

-----

+1

[jeffwarne]

I was struck by the quote below:

"There's not a single private golf club that has been the host of a U.S. Open in the past 30 years that allows visitors who aren't either playing with a member or sponsored by one. And the same is true for the majority of Golf Digest's America's 100 Greatest, where most of the courses on the list are private. (Disclosure: I am a member at a couple of those places.) "

Read More http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/2011-07/david-fay-private-clubs#ixzz1cw4LQeLU

David Fay's knowledge of who plays and has access to US Open private courses of the last 30 years is as oblivious as his organization's on the advances in equipment.
 
I've played along with many others, multiple courses in this category without being the guest of a member.(there are other access points)
Nonetheless his point is well taken.


Tax laws and a different fee structure make for a different culture.
that said, I admire the UK model and find it a very practical way to operate a club for all parties.
An awful lot of that goes on already in the US, just via access from sponsored guests via a member ,pro,or management.
Not as open or as regular as many clubs in the UK-but somewhat accessible nonetheless.
I don't think though that the UK clubs with open guest policies have been overrun by sexual predators or criminals though (they're all hanging out here in New York )

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat it is typical you think cash means class, if only it were that easy.

Mark,

It is typical that you think the "icon" clubs require great wealth to join, when the opposite it true.
They're amongst the least expensive in terms of initiation and dues.

I'm more comfortable and more familiar with the vetting process at the icon clubs than you are and if you think that net worth is the defining requirement, then you're out of touch and/or uninformed.

There is one UK club that at one time charged a £25k initiation, the joke was you could tell the members as they were the ones with "love" and "hate" tattooed on their knuckles. They could join a club with cash but not on contacts.

Would you identify ten (10) icon clubs in the U.S. where you can join "with cash but not on contacts" ?

As a police officer I'll say it again it's the sex offenders and criminals who've never be caught that are the problem not the convicted ones.
You're a police officer and you feel that convicted sex offenders pose no threat to society ?

Then why must they register their residence and inform the authorities anytime they move ?

There are enough posts where my clubs are identified, a little digging will identify them to you.

[Mark Chaplin]

That is my very point convicted sex offenders have controls on them, it's the unknowns that are the worry.

My point about wealth was in reply to your assumption that those who paid a tidy sum to play a charity day were automatically of class.

Of course iconic clubs the world over tend to be reasonably priced to join. They tend to own their land and have little in the way of debt. The likes of Sebonac with $ millions paid for the land and development will always be more expensive to service the investment.