David Fay on Opening of Masterpieces to Non-Members

[Dean Stokes]

Ronald, it would work in America...it can work anywhere. The fact that members of certain US private clubs have to pay such a premium to join means that they do not want to share their courses with anyone....Mr. Potts stressed that quite clearly.

[Dan Byrnes]

Is membership in the UK for a top club as difficult to achieve as it would be in the US?  What is the determining factors?  Money or connections?

While there are no top clubs anywhere near me, I am under the impression it would be difficult but not impossible for me to join one of them.  In major metro area of the US, there are non top 100 clubs that I would have trouble joining, let alone the top ones.

I am an avid golfer, single digit handicap, respectful and well mannered and have some means but lack the connections..

In the US there is a prestige associated with membership at clubs.  There are many well healed folks with multiple memberships in what are considered elite clubs.  Money is no object for these folks but money won't get you in the door either.  So it's a closed group from what I can tell with connections the primary criteria although I certainly wouldnt expect there are many school teachers on the membership rolls of Winged Foot, NGL, Cypress etc.  While there are exceptions membership to a top club takes money too. The top clubs are basically immune to economics so the need to save $1000 in dues isn't motivating. 

Is this the same in the UK?  This is what I expect is the biggest hurdle to a plan like Fay's but of course he already knows that and is more just talking about it like Warren Buffett wants to pay more taxes, because they can.  Fay has all the access he could ever have through his connections.

[JR Potts]

Come on, you have to know I said "it's not worth discussing" for effect.  It's worth discussing as everything is worth discussion.

That said, not a morsel of my being thinks that things will change in the US in my lifetime or that of my offspring.

[JR Potts]

When someone like Potts says not worth discussing, we need to discuss even more until we figure out why the functional model from UK won't work in USA.

And what does this mean?

[Chris Kane]

Is membership in the UK for a top club as difficult to achieve as it would be in the US?  What is the determining factors?  Money or connections?

I would guess that membership at the likes of Muirfield, Prestwick, Swinley Forest, Royal St Georges etc is just as difficult to 'achieve' as a top American club. Money has nothing to do with it.

[Dan Byrnes]

Is membership in the UK for a top club as difficult to achieve as it would be in the US?  What is the determining factors?  Money or connections?

I would guess that membership at the likes of Muirfield, Prestwick, Swinley Forest, Royal St Georges etc is just as difficult to 'achieve' as a top American club. Money has nothing to do with it.

Nothing because it's not expensive or money is required but money alone won't get you invited?  Just guessing initiations would not be trivial at the US top100, say 50k on average?  No idea just guessing maybe higher?

Dan

[Joe Sponcia]

Come on, you have to know I said "it's not worth discussing" for effect.  It's worth discussing as everything is worth discussion.

That said, not a morsel of my being thinks that things will change in the US in my lifetime or that of my offspring.

Mr. Potts,

This reminds me of a certain person in high office that argued, "...it depends on what your definition of is...is".  If we operated like England/Scotland does with regard to "outside" play, no matter the prestige of the course, we could call it a Semi-Private course.  

That 1% vs. the 99% populist charade is a low blow regardless of if you are actually a 1 percenter or not?  The thing is, 85% of why a course is in the top 50 seems to have alot to do with the exclusivity of it.  If the 1% can't stand the 99%, why not just leave them be?  But that can't happen?  Gotta get the logo on a shirt to prove for a day "I" was a 1 percenter.  Gotta tell the story again over lightly oxygenated miller lite, "yep, and got up and down on 18 at ________________________ (insert famed snobatorium).  I would have more respect if Gentlemen would start acting like Gentlemen and write a proper, hand-written letter to the Head Pro, President of the Board, or God-forbid network a little to get on before claiming that the public can't get on a "top-tier" course without a certain last name or enough zero's in their bank account.  

And again, Mr Fay does remind one of Warren Buffett who complains about the lack of taxation while employing the very best he can to avoid the very taxes he pretends to deplore.

[Ronald Montesano]

Brits out there, are there tax restrictions in the UK (as there are in the USA) that handcuff private clubs from allowing outside play?

[Mark Chaplin]

Ronald - no, we pay tax on the income like any other business.

Dan - The exclusive UK clubs usually require a proposer and seconder then between 5-25 letters of support, this will be follwed by an interview and play in. Finally names are posted on the board for 28 days in order to give any member the opportunity to object. The wait can be anything from a few months to a couple of decades.

Pat - Sebonac isn't iconic but then neither were the iconic clubs a couple of years after they opened. I'd love to hear your experiences of playing in GB&I if you'd care to share them?

[Mark Pearce]

Pat - Sebonac isn't iconic but then neither were the iconic clubs a couple of years after they opened. I'd love to hear your experiences of playing in GB&I if you'd care to share them?

I can't imagine Pat will have risked playing golf in the UK.  After all, as is clear, we let all sorts of riff-raff onto our courses.....

[Brett_Morrissy]

After a brief tour last year of some fine US courses, it was literally life changing, and I hope to get back to see some of the other highly regarded golf courses, particularly of the golden age, but also "recents"

The point I wanted to make, and it refers to some of Pat's repeating of the same question, "do you open your home to the general public/leave the door unlocked" - is, that these really are hallowed ground, incredible natural golf courses designed, moulded, shaped into the things of great beauty, strategy, and provide a lifetime of enjoyment. And I would think that every person on here, and there would be another 100 for every 1 on GCA.com,  should once in their lifetime get to see these pure places, to play them once, or to walk them, and tell their families and children about it.

These 'target icons' are not really owned by the members, they are looking after them while they are here, and hopefully handing them on to the next generation, they are national treasures, works of art, special places, and for this reason, it is a terrible shame that for at least the few that really do care, will generally not get to experience them.

My home is nice, but is not like like a Long Island golf course, or it's beautiful clubhouse, there is no queue of people lined up at my front gate just to catch a glimpse. But the historically significant houses in my area DO OPEN their doors once or twice per year to the general public, there is a State Garden scheme here, where people with beautiful and/or interesting gardens will open their gates for free, or for a coin donation, just to let the general public ( well those that are interested anyway) see the beauty, learn something new, talk to the owner/gardener, or the architect, pass on some knowledge. These things are very important for us all. These people do not screen or vet the visitors at the front gate, and they may get some one pinch a cutting or a flower, but the general populace are just happy to appreciate the opportunity to see such things.

The US seem to do the scholarship programs very well, so providing a glimpse or experience or sharing some greatness with a devoted pupil or student, or an avid reader, or participant, of an architecturally significant golf course design, clubhouse and a famous milkshake or cocktail, I would think is a good thing. An application system similar to the one used for the caddy scholarship ?

I walked a famous Monterey course last year, and it will stay with me forever, and one of the best moments of my life, and I do live a pretty well balanced life, I feel my priorities are ok,  but it was still a stirring experience, as was the one in Nebraska - I will say it again, those so inclined, should get the chance to see this once! ..or as a guy called Ferris, once famously said,"life moves pretty fast, if you don't stop and take a look around once in a while, you could miss it" - life is too short.

Share the great ones! Make the trophy hunters stand at the back of the line.

[jeffwarne]

Paging Hamilton B. Hearst (III)

 

and to think of the danger I was in playing those "open" courses in the UK
(thank God I wasn't swimmimg)

[JR Potts]

Brett:

Those houses are opened a few times a year for people to walk through, not live in.

A lot of the Top 100 have outside events where someone could walk-through for a day.  Augusta, Shinny, Merion, Medinah, Oakland Hills, Souther Hills, Pine Valley, Winged Foot, Baltstrol, Plainfield, Butler, Cypress Point, Shoreacres, Chicago Golf, Aronimink, Colonial, MPCC, Olympia Fields, Beverly, Skokie CC, Exmoor CC, North Shore CC, Brookline CC, etc. etc. all have or have had event recently where anyone with a few buck to buy a ticket could go and see the course.

What the proponents of "mass inclusion" want, is to sleep in one's house without paying for it...not merely to tour the rooms.  And in America, I don't ever see that happening.

[Mike Sweeney]

What the proponents of "mass inclusion" want, is to sleep in one's house without paying for it...not merely to tour the rooms.  And in America, I don't ever see that happening.

In New York, it is all done very quietly but it is happening:

http://www.sgagolf.net/course.html

I think the membership is $200 a year and then the outings are in the $300-400 range.

[C. Squier]

Of those who are advocating the UK model in the US, how many are paying full US dues at a club after writing a big check to join? 

I'm with Potts.  The last thing I want to see is my neighbor on the tee box of where I belong for relatively no cost.  I don't get to drive his new Lexus for the cost of gas, why should he play my course for the same, metaphorically speaking?

A person who lives many, many miles away and won't have any reason to ever join my club?  Perfect example of why my pro has the power to offer reciprocity. 

[George Pazin]

Re: the US v Aus/UK, it's not just the golf culture, it's the legal culture as well. Additionally, there is a pretty big difference in the supply/demand thing, too.

From what little I know about golf overseas, I'd be more worried about them adopting the US structure than vice versa; haven't some of the newer UK clubs adopted the US model, or at least something similar? I hope that never happens to the older clubs.

[Sean_A]

George

I don't think the older clubs will change their approach.  Perversely, for many of the big guns, raising green fees is a way to reduce visitor play, yet still rake in the desired money available from more well to do golfers.  With TOC acting as a league leader for most of Scotland, I am wondering when it will all end.  We saw how continuously raised fees in Ireland eventually led to a sudden clamber for visitors these past few years.  At £150 to play TOC next summer I gotta believe Scotland is on the edge of that clambering precipice.  Relying more on foreign visitors and less on UK folks may work just fine for TOC and a handful of other clubs, but I gotta wonder how many other clubs can command that sort of dosh moving forward.  Even Dornoch will hit £100 next year - this could be another greedy club I write off for future visits.  We can't be that far off a situation whereby the new generation of GB&I golfers who are keen and can afford it, won't bother to play the big guns because of cost.  There aren't a lot Brits I know willing to drop £500 in green fees for a five day golfing holiday.

Ciao

[Tim Pitner]

I just got caught up on this thread . . .

So the reason private courses don't want to allow visitor play is because sex offenders might end up poolside?

Can we stay on topic, please--Penn State football has no place in this discussion.  

[C. Squier]

There aren't a lot Brits I know willing to drop £500 in green fees for a five day golfing holiday.

So when compared to many Americans who pay $500-$1500 per month on US dues (many during winter when you can't play at all) it shouldn't be any surprise when they don't want to give it away to daily play.

[Peter Pallotta]

Sean - good post #147, thanks.  Folks are free to charge what they want/think the market will bear, while other folks are free to make decisions re how to spend their money/relative worth.  But 'symbolically' (for lack of a better word), the Pebble-Beach-a-fication of the courses you mention makes me a little sad -- watching the 'smart move' win out ever-more-often over the 'wise move'.

Peter

[PCCraig]

This is a bit of a wild thread.

While I think David Fay has the best intentions, his idea falls flat in the real world. I think Clint hits it right on the head in that there is a big difference between the student of architecture who flies across the country and either writes a letter or has a professional call and vouch for him in the name of seeing a golf course once and the local guy who just wants to play your club without paying to join.

Generally speaking if you're a decent guy, conduct yourself well, a decent player, and love to golf you'll get on your fair share of private clubs without trying too hard or having to send GCA PMs to every guy who claims he's a member of a private club in your city While Pat Mucci's "sex offender" comment is a stretch, I would tend to agree that the type of local guy that can't be invited as a guest of a member and doesn't want to pay a decent guest fee is probably not the guy you want playing unaccompanied on a Saturday morning.

The UK Model is nice and all, but GCAers and David Fay need to realize that it'll never happen in the much different culture of the United States.

[Dean Stokes]

Of course it will never happen in the US but it's fun to debate....unless of course these courses that were charging 200k initiation and 20k a year dues (that now have 50-60 on the waiting list TO GET OUT), and have dropped initation by 3/4's, suddenly need outside play to exsist.......sadistically and selfishly I sometimes do hope!!!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat - Sebonac isn't iconic but then neither were the iconic clubs a couple of years after they opened. I'd love to hear your experiences of playing in GB&I if you'd care to share them?

I can't imagine Pat will have risked playing golf in the UK.  After all, as is clear, we let all sorts of riff-raff onto our courses.....

I was probably playing golf in the UK before you were born.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ronald - no, we pay tax on the income like any other business.

Dan - The exclusive UK clubs usually require a proposer and seconder then between 5-25 letters of support, this will be follwed by an interview and play in. Finally names are posted on the board for 28 days in order to give any member the opportunity to object. The wait can be anything from a few months to a couple of decades.

Pat - Sebonac isn't iconic but then neither were the iconic clubs a couple of years after they opened.

I wasn't aware that this thread was about the state of golf in the early 1900's.

I'd love to hear your experiences of playing in GB&I if you'd care to share them?

Again, I was probably playing golf in the UK before you were born.
Why would I want to share my experiences with you ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

JR Potts, I agree with you. You describe the American private golf club culture very well. Personally I prefer the Australian/British model, but that isn't to say that I'd want American private clubs to be forced to do something they don't want to do.

I do find Patrick's xenophobic view of the 'general public' to be quite amusing though.

Chris,

What you and the other cretins don't understand is the vast difference in the legal systems.
Forget the tax ramifications.
If a member slips in the shower and breaks his arm, or slips going down a set of steps from a tee/green and breaks his arm, will he sue the club ?
If a "general public" golfer experiences the same fate, will he sue that club ?
You bet he will.
So why would a club want to expose themselves to the additional liability associated with allowing the general public unfettered access ?

Many clubs ceased hosting "sweet sixteen" parties due to the liabilities associated with them.
And, those clubs employed uniformed police officers from the same town as additional security, and still the problems and liabilities persisted.

You bozos don't have a clue with respect to what you're talking about, never having experienced the problems private clubs face when outsiders, the general public or special event attendees, are granted access.

And since "sexual harrassment" seems to be in the news, you should know that the club's can be liable for the conduct of an outsider, a member of the general public you glorify, should they make inappropriate comments to the wait staff.  Now, I know you'll claim that never happens, but, that's just your ignorance talking.

The sexual predator was just one example, amongst a myriad number of examples, where the clubs exponentially magnify their risks, by admitting the "general public"

You and especially the "Marks" have never sat on a Board of Governor's and had these problems confronting you.
You just rant against the present arrangement with a complete lack of understanding regarding the problems associated with your raison d'etat.

You just want what somebody else has and you want it without paying for it, or you want it at a deep discount.

I'm surprised the "Marks" have had the time to type their responses since I thought they'd be spending all of their time in Zuccotti Park.