[Dan Kelly]

Jon Bon Jovi, the famous rocker, opened a restaurant in New Jersey where the menu has no prices and customers pay what they can afford.

For more info:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/10/23/soul-food.html

Would this ever work for golf course? Think a pay box of the second tee where a player puts it whatever he feels is a fair rate. Would this help promote and further the game of golf by allowing juniors and those of lower incomes to play a sport they otherwise couldn't afford?

Thoughts?

I doubt that a pay-whatever-you-want setup would work -- but it would be interesting to have a negotiable, fluctuating green fee, wouldn't it?

Let's say I want to play tomorrow. It's cold. There won't be much demand for tee times, anywhere around here -- particularly at summer rates, or even at end-of-season rates.

So ... let me call, say, Chaska. The current, Fall rate is probably around $30. I know that, even though there's one guy on Earth who thinks it could be a "top 100" course if it were properly invested in, I don't want to pay $30 for Chaska on the 2nd of November; I want to pay ... 15. I won't pay 30, and I won't call and offer 15 -- but I would if that were the way business were done. (Perhaps it IS done that way, and I just didn't get the news. It's happened before!)

The manager of the course would decide what is an acceptable offer, and what is not.

When you got to the course, you'd pay what you had agreed to pay -- regardless of whatever anyone else has agreed to pay.

Thoughts?

[Tony_Muldoon]

Jon Bon Jovi, the famous rocker, opened a restaurant in New Jersey where the menu has no prices and customers pay what they can afford.

Back in the 80's when we all had money,  there was a restaurant in London based on paying for the value you thought you'd had. Lasted 6 weeks or so.

The only joke ever attributed to Andrew Lloyd Webber goes as follows.


"What's the only certain way of ending up a millionaire investing in the Theatre?


...Start off a multimillionaire!”  guffaw, guffaw.


Jon Bon Jobi can afford to run a soup kitchen, good luck to him. Gives him another thing to yak about on his next PR tour.

Anyone fancy having a  ‘yard’ sale where people go into your house and leave what they can afford for what they walk out with?


Business is not a dirty word, get over it.
 

[Mark Johnson]

. I know that, even though there's one guy on Earth who thinks it could be a "top 100" course if it were properly invested in,

Thanks...   I stand by my statement.    would take A lot of investment, but I think that course has great bones

[Dan Kelly]

. I know that, even though there's one guy on Earth who thinks it could be a "top 100" course if it were properly invested in,

Thanks...   I stand by my statement.    would take A lot of investment, but I think that course has great bones

Mark --

I had no doubt that you'd stand by your statement (no matter how ... perplexing it might be to me)!

I have no idea what "great bones" are, in general or at Chaska. Perhaps you could spell that out?

Dan

[Garland Bayley]

"great bones" is what a consulting architect says a course has when he tries to sell a master plan that he claims will make the course "top 100"

[Tom_Doak]

Jon Bon Jovi, the famous rocker, opened a restaurant in New Jersey where the menu has no prices and customers pay what they can afford.

For more info:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/10/23/soul-food.html

Would this ever work for golf course? Think a pay box of the second tee where a player puts it whatever he feels is a fair rate. Would this help promote and further the game of golf by allowing juniors and those of lower incomes to play a sport they otherwise couldn't afford?

Thoughts?

I doubt that a pay-whatever-you-want setup would work -- but it would be interesting to have a negotiable, fluctuating green fee, wouldn't it?

Let's say I want to play tomorrow. It's cold. There won't be much demand for tee times, anywhere around here -- particularly at summer rates, or even at end-of-season rates.

So ... let me call, say, Chaska. The current, Fall rate is probably around $30. I know that, even though there's one guy on Earth who thinks it could be a "top 100" course if it were properly invested in, I don't want to pay $30 for Chaska on the 2nd of November; I want to pay ... 15. I won't pay 30, and I won't call and offer 15 -- but I would if that were the way business were done. (Perhaps it IS done that way, and I just didn't get the news. It's happened before!)

The manager of the course would decide what is an acceptable offer, and what is not.

When you got to the course, you'd pay what you had agreed to pay -- regardless of whatever anyone else has agreed to pay.

Thoughts?

Dan:

This actually does happen, more than you think.  Years ago, at Grand Traverse Resort, people would wait in the pro shop toward the end of the day and make offers for their own special twilight rate; and of course every group of any size was negotiating the price of the golf, too.  I'm told about 10% of people actually paid the full "rack" rate.

The problem with this is that it makes golf courses even LESS likely to make any money.  Many courses discount already for shoulder season, off-season, twilight, group rates, etc.  At the end of the day, if they thought they would play 15,000 rounds a year at $80, they really only get an average green fee of somewhere between $55 and $60 for each of those rounds.  If you want to negotiate the rate on a rainy day, you are either going to drive the rack rate even higher, or you are going to drive the golf course out of business ... if it isn't going out of business already, that is.

[Jason Topp]

Isn't this a perfect example of a tragedy of the commons situation?

[Dan Kelly]

Isn't this a perfect example of a tragedy of the commons situation?

Explain?

[Mark Johnson]

Tom,

At most full service resorts, almost no overnight guests are paying the full rack rate due to buying a package that includes room, golf and sometime food and/or spa services.   (The following is a list of top courses where I have effectively paid less than $50 for a round:  Prince Course,  Whistling Straits, Irish Course, Barton Creek, Poipu Bay, Kauai Lagoons, Deacons Lodge, Wynn, Harbortown)

In many cases, the economics of the resort is that they are using either the hotel as a loss leader for the course or vice versa.

For late afternoon rounds, there is a totally different target market, often non-resort guests or locals.   These people have many more options and courses need to charge less in order to compete.

In reality, the rack rate on most resort courses is actually too low and the shoulder rate is too high.

Back to the original point re: negotiating, the real question i think is, should courses just lower their shoulder rates instead of encouraging negotiations? 

[Jason Topp]

Isn't this a perfect example of a tragedy of the commons situation?

Explain?

Individual interest (golf for low price) runs directly contrary to collective interest (quality sustainable facility). Think of commercial fisheries and how they have faired worldwide. It can work but only within very unique cultures.

[Greg Tallman]

...Overall the few times I have done this it worked out to about 40% of the regular rate at the end of the day at a relatively expensive resort course (not Cabo del Sol).

Guess the market is telling you your true worth.

Considering the people taking advantage of the program were those who as far from our target market as possible you would be off base.

It amounted to good will among some locals for whom the facilities were never really intended. The tourist crowd avergaed far higher than the final percentage.

And before you ask - no a locals rate was not a possibility.

[Greg Tallman]

In short, unless this were a philanthropic venture like JBJ, the only given is the operator providing a "conditions I can afford based on what decided to pay 'cause i need to eat" golf course.

[Garland Bayley]

...Overall the few times I have done this it worked out to about 40% of the regular rate at the end of the day at a relatively expensive resort course (not Cabo del Sol).

Guess the market is telling you your true worth.

Considering the people taking advantage of the program were those who as far from our target market as possible you would be off base.

It amounted to good will among some locals for whom the facilities were never really intended. The tourist crowd avergaed far higher than the final percentage.

And before you ask - no a locals rate was not a possibility.

There you go! Target market! AKA, consumers of Veblen goods.

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