[PCCraig]

Jon Bon Jovi, the famous rocker, opened a restaurant in New Jersey where the menu has no prices and customers pay what they can afford.

For more info:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/10/23/soul-food.html

Would this ever work for golf course? Think a pay box of the second tee where a player puts it whatever he feels is a fair rate. Would this help promote and further the game of golf by allowing juniors and those of lower incomes to play a sport they otherwise couldn't afford?

Thoughts?

[Adrian_Stiff]

No it wont work on this planet, most people will chuck a few pennies in.

[John Shimp]

Radiohead did it for a record but just one.  The Braids above Edinborough used to accept payment in a box 20 yrs ago. Not sure now? 

At a minimum there would have to be a strongly suggested expectation of whats fair. Who knows what youd get.

[Jason Walker]

honor boxes are nothing new, but the reason courses pay someone to collect the money is because they don't work.

[Joe_Tucholski]

A big part of the idea behind the restaurant and its success in my mind is hoping that people who can't pay will volunteer their time and essentially pay through their labor (that or just have a few wealthy benefactors and operate in the red).  I also figure the hope is to have a solid sense of community and internal policing by a core of regulars.

The closest comparison I can think of for golf (as Jason mentioned) is the honesty/honor/pay boxes that have been mentioned in a few threads at rural courses where they don't pay for a staff to collect fees.  I’m sure at these courses there is the occasional individual who passes through and doesn’t pay but I’d be willing to bet there isn’t a local out there who skips on putting money in the box.  If the local skips on payment I’m sure the community will find out about it and squash the behavior.

I also remember one thread that talked about a course in NE that utilized the pay box where many of the locals worked maintenance on the course in exchange for playing rights occasionally. 

I've also read on hear about the artisan membership utilized in Europe which is kind of similar to pay what you can afford and pay the rest some other way.

In regards to the best way to promote those who do not have the means like kids getting to play...I know that I worked at a golf courses in middle/high school not for extra money but so I could play as much golf as I wanted.  Heck I've inquired into caddying at courses here in LA that are beyond my means while I'm in grad school not for the money (technically the scholarship I'm on won't allow me to work a paying job) but simply to play courses I couldn't otherwise play. 

The mindset that you should pay what you can afford is bound to fail and will produce a poor product.  You don’t consume or utilize what is beyond your means you work to increase your means.

[Greg Tallman]

Have tried this on a one-day promotional basis and the results were all over the map.

1. The guy who just wants a moderately discounted round of golf and pays 75% of the regular rate (in some manner validating your regular rate)
2. Those that simply cannot afford or justify a $100 plus round of golf and pay what they can
3. The jerks that pay $10 yet can afford rack and then some

Overall the few times I have done this it worked out to about 40% of the regular rate at the end of the day at a relatively expensive resort course (not Cabo del Sol).

[Anthony Fowler]

This strategy CAN work, and this has been experimentally demonstrated:
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/329/5989/325.short

The important empirical finding is that "pay-what-you-can" works best when there is a charitable component.  If a course starts a pay-what-you-can policy, people might just take advantage of it.  However, if a significant percentage of the money goes to a charity (The First Tee, scholarship funds, etc.), people will feel bad if they skimp, and they might even feel good by paying more.  The course could actually increase their profits and help charity at the same time.

Also, I could see this strategy working well for souvenirs and memorabilia (just like in the study above).  You might not buy a yardage book for $8, but you may offer $10 if you knew half the money was going to charity.  The course only makes $5 instead of $8, but they sell a lot more of them.

[Dave McCollum]

We’ve tried an “honesty box” for morning snacks and coffee for the early birds.  Like Joe, I thought it would work in our rural area, at least to the point of being a less expensive alternative than paying staff for selling a few cups of coffee and a muffin.   I suppose it does, but we made the mistake of reviewing surveillance camera logs that dispelled any notions of generally noble behavior.   Ironically, the best solution also was mentioned by Joe later in his post.  We put them to work.  Mostly, they’re retired guys who like to play at the crack of dawn.  We give them free coffee and snacks in exchange for shuttling carts up from the cart barn to the staging area.  They like having something to do and feel like they’re working for their reward.  They do a good job.  Cart kids don’t like to get up that early.

[Mark Johnson]

There is a nine hole corse in Kauai that does it. 

Forget the name but it probably works because tourists will pay more and they it view it as a service to the locals.

[Joe Sponcia]

I take my hat off to Mr. Bon Jovi for putting his wallet where his beliefs lie...and/but this will only work in my view, because he is subsidizing it.  The same would happen in the golf course business.  When you have public, city-owned courses selling tee times for below cost and the First Tee being propped up by tax dollars...

[jeffwarne]

honor boxes are nothing new, but the reason courses pay someone to collect the money is because they don't work.

There is a very large difference between "pay what you can afford", and an honesty box.
An honesty box assumes all are required to pay the same.

I would argue that if you can't pay the rate(with certain exceptions of course), perhaps you should be working, not playing golf, but then I'm not camping in a park right now either, nor reading protest speeches off my I-phone.

I would have no problem with a course maintained/designed/staffed at a minimum level to keep costs as low as feasible, but I'm not a fan of a progressive tax not only on earnings, but also on SPENDING.

[Jason Walker]

Jeffwarne-
I don't disagree with anything you wrote.  I was brief in my first reply because I actually don't think there's that much difference--the economic concepts of "pay what you can afford" and "honor box" have been studied and discussed in hundreds of scenarios, and the reality is the buyer will still  pay the least amount possible.

When Jon Bon Jovi wants to subsidize a golf course at an enormous loss, the concept will work.  But more to your point, if you're struggling with coming up with $20 to golf, perhaps work would be a better economic alternative than golf (given the time investment)?

This original post is why I sort of cringe at the idea of 'affordable golf'.   Not that the pastime can't be "affordable", but golf as an activity has a cost basis that is ridiculous compared to softball, darts, cards--most any activity you can think of. 

[Joe Sponcia]

Mr. Warne,

Yes, when you think about it though, what kind of course would you have from a conditioning standpoint, with few if any employees?  I know, I know, someone will chime in about some off-the-beaten path course in Scotland or Ireland that they played for next to nothing and was amazing...but in the U.S., I just can't see how Mr. Bon Jovi's menu, which comparatively speaking, is like playing the Honors, could "serve" 11 on the stimp with walk mowed greens, finely manicured bunkers all for the price of whatever you want and if you can't...then just grab a gas can and a lawnmower.

I truly don't want to disparage Mr. Bon Jovi's charity in the least, I just wonder aloud how much he loses per day and how long he will keep it open?

[Garland Bayley]

...Overall the few times I have done this it worked out to about 40% of the regular rate at the end of the day at a relatively expensive resort course (not Cabo del Sol).

Guess the market is telling you your true worth.

[jeffwarne]

Jeffwarne-
I don't disagree with anything you wrote.  I was brief in my first reply because I actually don't think there's that much difference--the economic concepts of "pay what you can afford" and "honor box" have been studied and discussed in hundreds of scenarios, and the reality is the buyer will still  pay the least amount possible.

When Jon Bon Jovi wants to subsidize a golf course at an enormous loss, the concept will work.  But more to your point, if you're struggling with coming up with $20 to golf, perhaps work would be a better economic alternative than golf (given the time investment)?

This original post is why I sort of cringe at the idea of 'affordable golf'.   Not that the pastime can't be "affordable", but golf as an activity has a cost basis that is ridiculous compared to softball, darts, cards--most any activity you can think of.  

Jason,
Sorry I wasn't meaning to call you out (yours was one of several posts comparing the two)

I don't cringe at the idea of affordable golf.
It can be quite affordable-it's just that expectations have gotten so out of hand (particularly amongst average ability,middle class  income golfers)

In an area where there are two courses charging  one million dollar initiations, and several more charging nearly 1/2 half that, I am able to play several courses for under $20 (in one case all day for that rate-and $350 for a membership)
The golf is no less fun to play  than the fancy privates, and frankly, the way most people play, a shorter courses with slower greens would seem to be the best place to play.
Somewhere along the line, expectations got woefully out of line.

Joe,
i play quite regularly at a course that has one maintenance employee...ONE, and the course conditions are quite playable, and the greens are wonderful-they stimp at 6 or 7 but have slopes to match that speed-downhill putts, approaches, and chips can be terrifying.
Expectations my friend-Do you need greens at 11 and "manicured" bunkers???

[PCCraig]

Good discussion so far. Obviously a restaurant and a golf course are two separate beasts, but I think there are some things golf could take from JBJ's venture.

For example, let's say the local muni that you play raises the going standard rate by $20 per round, but in doing so promises that Junior golfers can play for free after 4pm (twilight)? Would you be ok paying the extra $20 knowing that juniors would have an opportunity to play and learn the game? Or would you move down the road to the next course and save the $20?

[Bill Seitz]

Radiohead did it for a record but just one.  The Braids above Edinborough used to accept payment in a box 20 yrs ago. Not sure now? 

At a minimum there would have to be a strongly suggested expectation of whats fair. Who knows what youd get.

I see this working better for music, though, than for most other ventures like golf and restaurants.  Putting aside the fact that the guys in Radiohead are already fairly wealthy, the key is the marginal cost.  Once a record is completed, the marginal cost of selling one additional electronic download is essentially zero.  I believe they did actually charge for the physical media.  In addition, records are part product, part advertising vehicle for other sources of revenue, like live shows, where bands typically make more money.

The restaurant seems to work as a charitable venture, and it sounds great so long as they can maintain the flow of paying customers and volunteers.  It sounds like But it would seem to me that one of the draws for the paying customers is a sense of giving back to the community.  I think it would be hard to sell the public on a golf course as a charitable venture to the extent necessary to pay for maintenance, but I suppose it could work. 

[Garland Bayley]

... Think a pay box of the second tee where a player puts it whatever he feels is a fair rate. ...

If you find a daily fee course that is generally full all the time, you probably have found a course that charges a fair rate. The problem with many courses is that they charge at a rate that makes them Veblen goods. Therefore, if you operate a course in Cabo del Sol, you are probably offering Veblen goods when you are charging 250% of a fair rate.

I have oft read here about the phenomenon of the third owner of a course being the one that can make a go of it. Why? Because, it would seem people were paying what they thought was a fair rate. Very few thought the original owner was charging a fair rate, so very few showed up and paid it. After a while of this, the owner sold at a loss. More people thought the reduced rate the second owner was charging was a fair rate, but still not enough of them show up and pay it. Eventually that owner sells at a loss. Finally, the third owner has the rate down to a fair rate, and makes a go of it.

[PCCraig]

... Think a pay box of the second tee where a player puts it whatever he feels is a fair rate. ...

If you find a daily fee course that is generally full all the time, you probably have found a course that charges a fair rate. The problem with many courses is that they charge at a rate that makes them Veblen goods. Therefore, if you operate a course in Cabo del Sol, you are probably offering Veblen goods when you are charging 250% of a fair rate.

I have oft read here about the phenomenon of the third owner of a course being the one that can make a go of it. Why? Because, it would seem people were paying what they thought was a fair rate. Very few thought the original owner was charging a fair rate, so very few showed up and paid it. After a while of this, the owner sold at a loss. More people thought the reduced rate the second owner was charging was a fair rate, but still not enough of them show up and pay it. Eventually that owner sells at a loss. Finally, the third owner has the rate down to a fair rate, and makes a go of it.

If a course is generally full all of the time, then they are probably not charging enough...no?

[Joe Sponcia]

I just feel few will participate (more realistic payers) on a regular basis without personal recognition (read: few, not all).  Most of us when cornered act on behalf of our own self interest, human nature. 

Try opening a Benevolent-mart that says out front they intentionally charge 10% more than wal-Mart (but have same selection) promising to pay their employees 10% more in wages/benefits.  While it sounds really nice, the practicality is questionable as a sustainable (profitable) business.

[Garland Bayley]

... Think a pay box of the second tee where a player puts it whatever he feels is a fair rate. ...

If you find a daily fee course that is generally full all the time, you probably have found a course that charges a fair rate. The problem with many courses is that they charge at a rate that makes them Veblen goods. Therefore, if you operate a course in Cabo del Sol, you are probably offering Veblen goods when you are charging 250% of a fair rate.

I have oft read here about the phenomenon of the third owner of a course being the one that can make a go of it. Why? Because, it would seem people were paying what they thought was a fair rate. Very few thought the original owner was charging a fair rate, so very few showed up and paid it. After a while of this, the owner sold at a loss. More people thought the reduced rate the second owner was charging was a fair rate, but still not enough of them show up and pay it. Eventually that owner sells at a loss. Finally, the third owner has the rate down to a fair rate, and makes a go of it.

If a course is generally full all of the time, then they are probably not charging enough...no?

No, if they are not making money, then they are not charging enough.
If Walmart is full of customers most of the time, are they not charging enough?

[PCCraig]

... Think a pay box of the second tee where a player puts it whatever he feels is a fair rate. ...

If you find a daily fee course that is generally full all the time, you probably have found a course that charges a fair rate. The problem with many courses is that they charge at a rate that makes them Veblen goods. Therefore, if you operate a course in Cabo del Sol, you are probably offering Veblen goods when you are charging 250% of a fair rate.

I have oft read here about the phenomenon of the third owner of a course being the one that can make a go of it. Why? Because, it would seem people were paying what they thought was a fair rate. Very few thought the original owner was charging a fair rate, so very few showed up and paid it. After a while of this, the owner sold at a loss. More people thought the reduced rate the second owner was charging was a fair rate, but still not enough of them show up and pay it. Eventually that owner sells at a loss. Finally, the third owner has the rate down to a fair rate, and makes a go of it.

If a course is generally full all of the time, then they are probably not charging enough...no?

No, if they are not making money, then they are not charging enough.
If Walmart is full of customers most of the time, are they not charging enough?

You can enter a wal-mart and not buy anything, in order to step foot on a golf course you (generally) pay in advance, and the same as everyone else...so that's not a perfect analogy. Also, it's entirely possible to charge too much and not make a profit as well. I would bet most golf course operators would be happy with an 80-95% occupancy on their tee sheet as in a perfect world it would be nice to know you're at least coming close to the natural supply/demand price point.

[George Pazin]

JBJ's restaurant is likely a little plaything to him, probably something to keep his family busy and his name in the papers. Aren't too many golf courses that are like that...

[PCCraig]

JBJ's restaurant is likely a little plaything to him, probably something to keep his family busy and his name in the papers. Aren't too many golf courses that are like that...

George:

Justin Timberlake's course down in Memphis seems to be on a similar page. He pumped a ton of money into the course, but I don't know if he does or doesn't make a profit on it.

[George Pazin]

Yeah, it kinda kills me that I kinda like JT... Funny on SNL, seems like a good guy. Lives a leeeeetle larger than I...

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