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Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

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Re: Are we bored with Pete Dye?
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2002, 12:04:01 PM »
Matt--

You may be seeing more world class pros squirm at The Ocean Course in 2003.  Check out the story that recently ran in the Charleston Post & Courier:

http://www.charleston.net/pub/archive/sports/wcp1228.htm

At this time, I cannot confirm nor deny...  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

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Re: Are we bored with Pete Dye?
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2002, 12:12:43 PM »
I'm not bored at all with Pete Dye. ???

Having met him at Whistling Straights last October, where he
is prepping the course (making it harder?) for the 2004 PGA
Championship, Pete was spry and excited about the
championship coming there. :)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Doug Wright

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Re: Are we bored with Pete Dye?
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2002, 12:18:14 PM »
Tim,

I was responding to your intitial post in which you say we hardly ever mention Pete's courses. i haven't done a word search either but I sense we have mentioned his courses a good bit on here, though perhaps not as much as Fazio's.

Re the "systematic discussion" my point was that re Fazio there's a lot of discussion about his style (eg "framing") that I don't recall seeing about Pete as much. A lot of the discussion re Fazio also is caught up in tangential stuff like his work on majors courses. Of course one can't discuss an architect's work without reference to specific courses. My recollection of the discussion on here re Pete Dye is first re specific courses and second re his design style. I could be wrong... ::)

BillV,

You have a rare lady there if she liked Glenmoor and loved TPC and Plum Creek. Glenmoor absolutely is not fun for most women--or men for that matter. It's the poster child for bad railroad tie-DYe IMO. Plum Creek has some of the same, eg the last 3 holes. Can't quibble with your assessment of Riverdale Dunes, though. Pete and the others who worked on it, including Doak, lowered the bar somewhat for this municipal course. But if you change your standards a little when looking at these courses to look at those women who won't usually break 90 (and their male counterparts), do you see my point? There are forced carries that can make one's life miserable. The few Fazio courses I've played (Emerald Dunes, Valley @ Cordillera and a couple in NC) were more forgiving than the Dyes.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ChrisB (Guest)

Re: Are we bored with Pete Dye?
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2002, 12:50:11 PM »
Just a theory...  Perhaps one of the differences between Dye and Fazio is that Dye's courses require less interpretation than Fazio's; that is, Dye's features tend to be pretty bold and dramatic, and it's fairly obvious by playing them (or even just looking at them) what Dye intended to throw in front of the player.  With Fazio, you may say to yourself "OK, what exactly did he intend here? or "Haven't I seen this before?", but you have to look at the subtleties to really understand the design.  So it comes down more to the eye of the beholder, which makes everything more open for debate.

For example, I received a little heat for contending that the 6th hole at The Preserve was "reverse-redan-like".  Granted, standing on the tee, it doesn't look at all like #15 at North Berwick or any of the most famous redan copies or derivations in the U.S. (the tee is slightly elevated and the green site rests on the side of a large hill sloping down to the right)  But by playing the hole multiple times you come to realize that the hole has several features of a reverse-redan: mid- to long-iron (203 yd) shot to a green angled front left to back right and sloping that way also, deep bunker and sharp fallaway on the inside (right side) of the redan, the area short of the green angling toward the tee making a run-up difficult, and a drop-off left (far more subtle) which makes for a tricky over-the-hump recovery shot to a fallaway green.  Like the original redan, it takes a very precise shot to hit it close wherever the pin is located.  But it's hard to pick all of this up just by looking at the hole or playing it once.

So the question is:  are Dye's courses easier for everyone to "understand" and agree upon, whereas Fazio's courses more difficult to appreciate just by looking?

For me, I love playing great holes, I enjoy seeing unique or even strange holes, I don't mind having to strain to find the good in holes, and I don't even mind playing unfair or terrible holes--I just don't want to be bored.  And I've never been bored on a Dye or Fazio course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lynn Shackelford

Re: Are we bored with Pete Dye?
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2002, 02:17:38 PM »
Pete Dye isn't discussed here as passionately as Tom Fazio because Pete Dye doesn't homogenize old classic courses.  Has he ever been retained to renovate, restore or modernize a classic?  I get the impression Tom Fazion would redo a Frank Lloyd Wright building if he thought it would help his design firm.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_McMillan

Re: Are we bored with Pete Dye?
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2002, 03:03:44 PM »
I'm not bored with Dye - I was just never that impressed with him to begin with.  My knowledge of Dye comes from playing 1 course (Stonebridge Ranch near Dallas, TX), walking one (actually riding - it was a cold November day - Bulle Rock, north of Baltimore, MD), and watching the PGA courses on TV (TPC @ Sawgrass, PGA West, Ocean Course, Crooked Stick).  

My knock against Dye's designs is that he seems WAY too concerned with resistance to scoring versus creating interesting strategies or shots in his designs.  In "Bury me in a pot bunker" his section on Crooked Stick has an extended discussion about how before the PGA tournament he added length and moved around hazards to stymie the players - and was still upset that John Daly "got the better of him" that week.  Heck, if a player plays like Daly did - driving 300+ yards dead straight with a great short game - shouldn't he get the better of a course and lap the field?  Yet the bottom line on Crooked Stick seems not to be that Daly played great, but that Dye didn't put enough bite into the course.  

As far as being a "genius" at hiding the dirt he moved, I had the chance to ride around Bulle Rock with Tom Doak.  After a couple holes, Tom asked my opinion of the course, and I said it didn't look very finished.  Doak replied that most people would think the opposite - that it was a very polished design.  I pointed out that around the fairways and greens were contours which were obviously created, since they didn't match anything in the "dead" areas between the holes - and that it looked like someone started to do some landmoving, but stopped after he finished the areas near the "in-play" areas.  

I realize there are many Dye designs I haven't had an exposure to which may be of a different character - but they'd have to be much different to significantly change my opinion of Dye.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

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Re: Are we bored with Pete Dye?
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2002, 03:14:47 PM »
Many comments seem to be zeroing in on the difference in personality and work ethic between the two.  I have only had one chance to meet Dye, (on 17th hole at Whistling) where he was intensely studying how the hole was played by many levels of golfers and he went into an enthusiastic description of how the land was shaped-created from nothing too remarkable, in an arm waving and demonstrative way.  Somewhat contrary to his economy of words reputation.  It was clear how much of himself was invested in the project and how proud he was of it.  And, one couldn't miss the quality and reality of his "dyabolical" personality in watching the very difficult hole being attacked by the various groups and the joy he was getting out of the successes and failures as they played through.  He cares!  He also demonstrates qualities of the ever inquisitive man in his studies of obscure things like finding a strain of paspulum in Florida that exhibited certain salt water resilience and then culturing a test plot and transfering it to his Teeth of the Dog.  Dye tinkers with his own designs, not others.  

I contrast Dye with Fazio from a limitted observational opportunity when watching Fazio join with Wynn to explain in detail the building of Shadow Creek.  I sensed a more detracted from the process individual, who relegated much of the design to the creativity of the Wadsworth crew there.  I sense that Fazio is more about the image of the design and self promotion of his firm and what they can do to beautify the project and add value as contrasted with Dye's focus on the golf course born of hard work and in the dirt craftsmanship that Dye and all his family seem to take pride in participation.  Ironically at that same convention, Alice Dye gave a talk on how she designs features specifically with ladies in mind, and Perry gave an enthusiastic speech on growing up and having fun with the dozers as integral to his formative years with his Dad.  I just think that the Dye's are about the design based on hard work themselves in the construction aspect, and Fazio's are about the marketing and image.  

If there is less criticism of Dye, perhaps folks sense there is more earnest craftsmanship by Dye to create challenging golf foremost out of ingenuity rather than Fazio's image and approach to create brand-name architect firm value first.  Dye as red blooded yankee ingenuity and Fazio as blue blooded egotistical pomp and imagery.

My very humble opinion, I could be quite wrong...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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A_Clay_Man

Re: Are we bored with Pete Dye?
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2002, 04:26:12 PM »
Dick, It is my opinion that your opinion can't possibly be wrong, ever. Sure ones premise might be mis-informed but that doesn't make your opinion wrong. ::)
Happy New Year to you and your lovely family.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Are we bored with Pete Dye?
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2002, 05:08:45 PM »
Dick Daley:

I'm wondering if the different treatment of Fazio and Dye has to do with the way we human beings filter information.

Most folks on this site, myself included, don't look favorably on spending lots of money to build golf courses or moving lots of dirt, but Dye certainly did both at Whistling Straits and we let it pass.  While in Bandon during September, I heard that even Herb Kohler, upon seeing Pacific Dunes, came away frustrated with what Tom Doak accomplished for one tenth the cost of what Dye spent.  Now, perhaps this is an unfounded rumor, but I don't recall anyone here making such a point, though repeatedly we hear criticism of Fazio for spending money and/or moving dirt.  Do we just absolve Dye because of his work ethic and craftsmanship?  

John McMillan:

Twenty years ago I dismissed Pete Dye, taking pride in my preference for more traditional architecture. Gradually, I had to admit that while I didn't "like" his work, I found myself having fun.

I remember one day playing the Ocean Course at Kiawah in some ridiculous 50 MPH wind.  My foursome played a two man better ball match play competition in which a single digit score on many holes beat out the rest of the group who couldn't manage such a feat due to the severe conditions.

But, nobody complained.  Indeed, it almost seemed like we were playing more "strategic" golf, as the man who carefully judged what he could do in brutal conditions came out the winner, even if his score sucked.

Dye does, in my opinion, seem awfully repetitive at times.  Frequently one steps up to a hole and you have a feeling "been there, done that".  But, he has managed to carve a place for himself in golf architecture by being bold and by introducing a unique style.  

Neither George Crump's work or that of Pete Dye is for everyone, but I"m glad they did their own thing.

Lynn Shackelford:

More often than not, I feel compelled to speak up for Fazio just to balance the frequent bashing.  But, I can't do that when it comes to the revision of old classic courses.  I wish he and his sponsors would just stay away from this activity.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Matt_Ward

Re: Are we bored with Pete Dye?
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2002, 06:34:34 PM »
John McMillan:

I can appreciate your opinion, but with all due respect do you believe it is fair to critique Dye with such a small portfolio of experiences to base your thoughts upon?

Pete Dye, in my opinion, is the key architect of the second half of the 20th century. He turned around the thoughts of a great many people in how courses are designed. He may not have been always right but he did stretch, if not pull, the traditional envelope apart.

As I said before I never feel bored on many of his designs. I do know that I better play my butt off in most instances or I will face some major problems. On a Dye course you don't go on "cruise control" with your game. He makes you play the total shots. I can hit the ball a decent ways off the tee and I know many of his holes will not surrender just because of length.

I grant not every design he's done is a classic -- but when you add up his total portfolio you have a good bunch of courses that won't easily be forgotten in 25-50 years.

I just hope the leadership of the PGA sets up Whistling Straits for the 04 PGA in the manner it should be for "world class players." If it is you will see one grand site. What the PGA did to Oak Tree in 1988 was a major mistake and the World Cup faced the same issues at The Ocean Course.

Pete Dye provides plenty of his designs with the ultimate in "mind" games. You better make the right choices time after time.  ;)

I wish Pete well and hope he keeps on doing what he does so well.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Are we bored with Pete Dye?
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2002, 06:59:22 PM »
Matt Ward:

A couple isues:

1) What sort of yardage would you like to see the big boys play at Whistling Straits?  Are they ready for the full length that Dye built the course?  Would you recommend it?

2) Do you see Dye's courses as being more appealing, more charming for the not so capable player?

I ask this because every time I went with a group of guys out to PGA West, everyone always wanted to drop balls down left of #16 green and have his own Tip O'Neill experience.  The only exceptions were good players who just wanted to get out of Dodge!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Mike_Cirba

Re: Are we bored with Pete Dye?
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2002, 08:17:33 PM »
To answer the original question, yes, unfortunately.

I think that Pete Dye is a genius, who is largely responsible for stimulating the interest and even the celebrity of golf course architects over the past 30 years.  His best courses will stand the test of time, and were daring, original, creative, and immensely challenging.

However, in the past decade, most of Dye's designs have almost become a parody of his style, and it seems to me that he has simply run out of gas.  Even his best in recent times, Whistling Straits, is hardly comparable to many of his other works in terms of creativity, originality, and consistency.  Like John McMillan, I've played courses like Bulle Rock and have left disappointed.  His completely overdone Irish course at WS is indicative of what's gone wrong.  

I hope that Pete Dye has a couple of great courses left in him, and that the creative juices aren't exhausted, but I haven't seen much evidence in his courses over the past decade.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Are we bored with Pete Dye?
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2002, 08:51:50 PM »
I sometimes think P.Dye is easily bored with P.Dye. I enjoy his early work the most, but he has been known to alter many of his early courses - Crooked Stick comes to mind.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Are we bored with Pete Dye?
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2002, 09:13:32 PM »
Tim:

In answering your question let me just say that some of the biggest whiners are the low handicap players who "talk" a good game but often somehow have amnesia when it comes time to play from the big boy tees.

I've played with many a fellow who could shoot up a storm on the regular home town track, but when they were taken out to Bethpage Black, to name just one course, they were screamin like a stuck pig when the subject of playing the "entire" course came up. You usually got the usual rants and raves about "fairness" and all such other nonsensical drivel.

In my mind this subject is no less applicable to many of today's so-called "world class players." They just love the concept of a birdie-feast, but watch how many of them usually whine when conditions move in the other direction.

What the PGA did to Oak Tree for that major event in 1988 was nothing less than criminal. Here is a course that on quite a few of the holes the tees were nearly at mid-length. I was there and saw it with my own eyes. The PGA brass was quite afraid if the typical Oklahoma wind blew (it did not for the entire event) and the "real" back tees were used the pros might still be playing there. My response? Isn't that what is supposed to be determined in a "major" event??? If "these guys are good" then prove it on a test that demands it -- pure and simple in my mind.

It's time for the big boys to show the kind of game on a course that will test them big time. The Straits Course will do that if played from the listed "black" tee length of 7,288 yards.
And, I would urge the PGA to keep all the par-5's as they were meant to be played -- none of that gimmick "let's change the 'weak' par-5's into long par-4's kind of stuff."

I give Pete credit in having the foresight in having a number of holes have "extended" back tee distance so that if necessary these holes can be played at additional yardage if circumstances warrant or the technology surge continues unabated. This same situation exists at The Ocean Course, but let me hasten to add that I don't believe you need to play the entire course there at I believe 7,700 yards to accomplish a "balanced and thorough" test of golf. However, let'ssee some long iron or even wood approaches. To me that's entirely appropriate and should be part of the examination.

The Straits has some of the most demanding psyche out par-3's I've seen. Get some wind blowing off Lake Michigan and I can tell you that plenty of players will behave like deer in the headlights. To wit -- push the pin to the back right on the par-3 12th and you better decide if you have brass ones or parakeet ones in shotting for the flag. Ditto the ultra-demanding par-3 17th!!!! Also, make sure the 18th is played from the extreme tips so that players will really have to decide if carrying their tee shot over the deep end is something they have the spine for.

The PGA unfortunately has shown a tendency in their flagship event to be more concerned with providing avenues for scores even when conditions could have been stiffened (just remember Medinah on a few of their holes).

What makes the Straits so unpredictable is the fickle weather conditions. I've seen the Straits when the fog is as thick as New England clam chowder and I've played the course when the wind just hammered you on every swing. If brutal weather conditions happen then appropriate decisions need to happen in terms of course set-up. But, if the weather is solid then make the boys earn it.

As far as your last question is concerned ... from what I've seen of Dye courses he does provide a lessening of severity for the higher handicap player ... provided they play from the tee boxes their handicap demands. The biggest ironic thing I've noticed on more than a few occasions is that a number of low handicap players opt to have "less" of a challenge to show they can "score" and many times the high handicap player will seek the "once in a lifetime" event from the more rear tee positions. I've got a few friends who fit this description to a tee.

The Dye courses I've seen do provide reasonable demands for the higher handicap players, but ones proportionate to their ability. It's never easy for any architect to accomplish this all the time because handicap levels do not necessarily reflect the type of game a player may possess (i.e. there are high handicap players who do hit the ball long but often stray and there are low handicap players who are precise and max out their games through a deft short game).

Hope this helps ... ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

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Re: Are we bored with Pete Dye?
« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2002, 09:28:43 PM »
Unfortunately, my post above was more about personal observations of the two men, and how they strike me in their approach to their profession.  But really, who the heck am I to evaluate those aspects based on fleeting observations.  None the less, I put it out there, so it is surely fair game to bash the opinion.

I never did comment though on the actual question.  To that I would say that I for one am not bored with Dye.  But, that is based on what I think is the deeper personal investment in his big projects that I observed that I think he makes, and the designs are bold, challenging and have plenty of golf strategy foremost in his designs.  That said, I also agree with Tim an Mike that some of his latest stuff maybe over the top and an effort to out Dye himself at WS and Irish.  Mike and I concurred after playing it that we had a little "buyers regret".  I much prefer either Blackwolf Course to WS as a matter of enjoyment, particularly if I play the right tees which is another big aspect of Dye's design quality in my view.  

Tim, it really isn't a like comparison however to consider cost to great design result when comparing WS next to PD.  WS really wasn't that hot of a site filled with natural terrain features.  But, I think it is very fair to compare it to Arcadia and you know that I like AB more.  As for the PGA at WS in 2004, I still can't imagine how they are going to get those numbers of spectators properly situated safely on that course.  Old  man Kohler better buy plenty of site liability insurance and hire Redanman to man an orthopedic trauma booth.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Joel_Stewart

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Re: Are we bored with Pete Dye?
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2002, 10:14:10 PM »
I'll fall into the camp that I'm not bored with Pete Dye but have never really liked his work.  I'll disagree with the begining thread because the premise that Pete has never worked with big or unlimited budgets is wrong.  Pete has been given unlimited budgets by Landmark Land (PGA West), the TPC and most noticably Herb Kohler.  I heard that more money was spent on Whistling Straits than Shadow Creek.

My problem with Pete is that he over does everything, he can't help himself.  I played Pacific Dunes with Tom Doak and discussed that if Pete was given Pacific Dunes (and given the routing was the same) how much more mounding and undulations Pete would have put in.  Take a look at WS or the River Course at Blackwolf Run and he has mounding 50 yards off the fairways.  I've always been confused because he states his extreme appreciation for classic architecture especially the old courses in Ohio but his extreme modern style are so far apart?

Personally I think the PGA at WS is going to be a disaster especially if the wind blows.  It sounds like he is already softening the course up much like he had to do at TPC and PGA West.



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Are we bored with Pete Dye?
« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2002, 11:16:03 PM »
Joel Stewart:

A couple points:

I've always heard a number of around $40-45 million quoted for Shadow Creek and about $30 million for Whistling Straits.

In any case, in both cases quite a lot of money was spent,  but it does seem to me that when a Tom Fazio project involves spending a lot of money, immediately people refer to far more economical efforts like PD or Sand Hills.  By contrast, with Pete Dye we don't hear much on the money issue.

What do you mean by forecasting Whistling Straits will be a disaster if the wind blows?  Do you mean the scores will be high?  Would that be a bad thing?

Dick:

I'm with you on the fact that PD and WS were totally different sites and that it is far more likely one could build a good course with limited expenditure at PD than WS.

What I was getting at is that we all, myself included, hold up projects like PD or a Sand Hills as being the ideal: classic courses were built and it was done without spending lots of money.

I'm probably just repeating myself, but, anyway, we then become horrified when Tom Fazio does the exact opposite, at least financially, with a Shadow Creek.  But, there is relative silence when Herb Kohler and Pete Dye do the same thing as Steve Wynn and Tom Fazio.

I'm not really fond of either group doing it, so I wonder why Kohler/Dye get a free pass?

P.S. Maybe Tom Doak will prove I'm as hypocritical as the next guy with his new Texas project.  I'm hoping he will!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Matt_Ward

Re: Are we bored with Pete Dye?
« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2002, 05:40:05 AM »
Tim:

You raise some valid points about the TF v PD comparison and why one is looked upon one way and the other in a different way.

I'd say if you layed out the ten best TF courses you played versus the ten best PD courses you find the PD are usually more rigorous and more "mind" challenging. Plenty of TF courses serve as wonderful back drops and provide plenty pof visual treats but more often after played a few times are relatively flat on the excitement meter. I don't find that the case with many of PD's designs.

Just an opinion ... ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BillV

Re: Are we bored with Pete Dye?
« Reply #43 on: January 04, 2002, 07:13:24 AM »
Doug Wright

Don't you agree that Cordillera Valley is one of the most disappointing ballyhooed loaves of white bread to be had?

Agreed Riverdale Dunes is relatively easy (Site of my last sub 70 round-see other thread, although I scared it amonth ago at Jericho until I looked at my scorecard and Pulled A Johnny Miller!)........... but there still is a lot of character there in spite of the low difficulty factor.  If you hit it too crooked at hte Dunes, you get in the fescues. Walking that course I used to slum along the frescue lines and find more balls than I wanted to carry!  So much for a total cupcake. ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

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Re: Are we bored with Pete Dye?
« Reply #44 on: January 04, 2002, 10:26:32 AM »
BillV,

Yes I agree re Cordillera Valley, but won't say more (this is a Dye thread not a Fazio thread, remember... ;D ).

Re Riverdale Dunes Pete's name on the work but he had a lot of help. Tom Doak mentions in his Confidential Guide that he did some holes and Perry Dye did others. Care to guess which holes are whose?  :D The course is schizoid in that respect...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Daryl "Turboe" Boe

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Re: Are we bored with Pete Dye?
« Reply #45 on: January 04, 2002, 02:15:41 PM »
Mike@Kiawah,

Can you post the specifics of that article in Charleston Post again.  I tried the link and got Charleston Post website but it said that story had moved.  It had a search ability but I wasnt sure what to search for.

Thanks, Daryl
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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RJ_Daley

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Re: Are we bored with Pete Dye?
« Reply #46 on: January 04, 2002, 02:44:31 PM »
An interesting account of Dye confronting Fazio was reported by Larry Aylward in "Golfdom" magazine.  At a ASGCA convention, Dye had the floor as a speaker and was aparently his wry and wisecracking self, when he reportedly looked at Fazio and commented that, "Bobby Jones would roll over in his grave if he knew about the decision to lengthen the course". He said that "the only good thing about that is the fat cats from Augusta are giving a Catholic a lot of money - and he'll end up giving it to someone else, like the boys and girls clubs".  He said that he admired RTJ Sr and borrowed from his style in his first designs, but then shied away from RTJsr style and did the opposite as "the only way I'd ever gain an identity".  Finally, he told the ASGCA group that "I never think about a signature hole when I'm designing a golf course".  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mark_Fine

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Re: Are we bored with Pete Dye?
« Reply #47 on: January 04, 2002, 03:50:28 PM »
I've never been bored when playing a Pete Dye course and have been fortunate to play almost everything notable he's done with the exception of The Teeth of the Dog!!  I don't necessarily "love" all his work, but his end products are always interesting, controversial and very thought provoking.

Pete Dye makes me think when I play.  Rarely do you play one of his holes and just grip it and rip it!  And one loose shot or mental laspe can be disaster!  I've always said that it is very easy to recognize a Pete Dye course as he tends to obliterate a piece of property and then remold it and shape it into a golf course.  Pete doesn't "find" courses, he "builds" them!  

All in all two thumbs up for Mr. Dye!  
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Are we bored with Pete Dye?
« Reply #48 on: January 04, 2002, 03:57:19 PM »
Mark Fine:

I agree with your observation that Pete Dye "builds" rather than "finds" golf course.

But, there are a couple places on the River Course at Blackwolf Run where I think the place looks like a playground for dinosaurs.

I've never "found" that feeling anywhere else.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Mark_Fine

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Re: Are we bored with Pete Dye?
« Reply #49 on: January 04, 2002, 04:08:27 PM »
Tim,
Not sure what features you are referring to there?  I remember one of my issues about Blackwolf Run (River) were the par threes - all four are essentially clones of each other.  It's good but it's not Pete's best work.  Again, some (much) of what Pete designs is controversial.  I'm not the biggest fan of Whistling Straits for example, but I still give it a 7 or so.  It's not a 9 or 10 the way some people talk it up, but what he did there is quite amazing regardless of how much was spent.  It's still not the real deal and if you've play the best courses in Ireland and Scotland, then played WS you'd know what I mean.  The Irish Course next door is really an American course.
Mark      
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »