[Anthony Gray]

What holes would you use as templates? I'm going with 14 at Cruden Bay just for starters.

[Philippe Binette]

Elie 13th angled false front and back board combinaison would be nice
North Berwick 13th: The Pit, not necessarily with a wall
TOC 13th: Lion's Mouth

[Mac Plumart]

Can say for sure I'd use a template hole.  Land dictates that.

[Adrian_Stiff]

None.

[Bill McKinley]

I would probably have a couple.  Some sort of Cape variation and probably a short.  But, it would have to depend on the land that I had, also a punchbowl and/or alps would be nice.

[Matthew Mollica]

Road
Eden
Cape
Bottle

I'd also like to employ a double dogleg par 5

And I'd draw inspiration from RMW 6, the Postage Stamp, and Kingston Heath 12.

MM

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

NONE

Architects design golf holes, not plagerize them.

Getting design ideas from old pictures is one thing, copying is another.

[Carl Rogers]

Utilize a healthy dose of the "Affordable Golf Symposium" strategies.  Determine the best way to cultivate turf.

[Tom_Doak]

No telling where I'd get some of my ideas from ... I'd have to see the land and get an idea of a routing first.  But, if I was going to do a course for myself, I am pretty sure it would be different from anything I've built for a client.  I just don't know exactly how.

[David_Elvins]

For me?  18 punchbowl greens. 

[JR Potts]

If cost were not an issue, I would build my course with all short grass.  No rough anywhere.

[James Boon]

I'm not sure it would be a case of "holes to use as templates" but holes or elements of holes to use as inspiration? I would say that holes only become "templates" when they are used again and again, as Raynor and MacDonald did? Otherwise, I'd say its more a case of using a hole as precedant or inspiration for a certain situation?

None.

Adrian,

Not withstanding my point above, I'm interested in the designers perspective here, and do you ever relate back to examples of holes you have seen or played when laying out a course? No designer wants to go around copying others, but I know when it comes to designing buildings, I may find I'm coming up with something that is similar to a building I've seen elsewhere. When that happens, it can often be a good point to analyse the other building to see if there is anything to be learnt from it that could benefit the building I'm designing. Also, being looking out for historic or modern buildings that I like, will often leave me thinking that there is an element or feature I like, and therefore something I'd like to recreate in my own way where appropriate.

Are these things that you, or Tom who has already chipped in on this thread, or any other GCA does? Not necessarily using templates, but getting inspiration?

Cheers,

James

[James Boon]

...and to answer Anthony's opening post, and assuming the land was suitable, here are a few holes I'd love to be able to try and incorporate elements of if I was ever in the position to do my own design 

Painswick 5th: a short, blind, uphill par 3 to a punchbowl green set within the ancient hillfort.
Moortown 10th: The famous "Gibralter".
   Both these play uphill so would be a good way of gaining height, in ways already proven to be of interest.

Notts (Hollinwell) 2nd: Long par 4 dogleg left. The approach needs to hang out left, which is semi blind, but there is plenty of room to run the approach in. Anything right, which is visually more open, find bunkers.

Painswick (again) 9th: Short par 5, drive tight to the right leaves a straightforward approach or layup with a narrow approach. A drive out left has plenty of room, but leaves an almost impossible layup or shot at the green.

Cheers,

James

[Carl Rogers]

a nine hole course with multiple teeing lengths and angles, huge greens with 2 sets of flagsicks.  use one set for the front nine and another set for the back nine.  it would be impossible to do a stroke rating or slope on this course because there would be too many options.

[Keith OHalloran]

I would make sure to have exact replicas of the 7th and 14th at sand hills. Should be easy to find suitable land for that.

[Bill Brightly]

NONE

Architects design golf holes, not plagerize them.

Getting design ideas from old pictures is one thing, copying is another.

Dick,

Only 251 posts, so I'll give you a break as a new guy. Here is what you'll come to understand if you make the effort to learn:

Good architects employ well-tested FEATURES, not holes. (MacRaynor critics routinely make this mistake.)

This honors the original architects, it does NOT plagerize them.

[Adrian_Stiff]

James - I can only really say how I think. I pretty much can remember everything I have ever played or seen, I would like to think that the things I have forgotten were not worth remembering, funny how I can remember quite minute details about Pebble Beach from one play whilst I remember very little from say Burnham Beeches (also a 1 play) and BB was quite nice btw. I think things like the 6th green at Hunstanton, perhaps the 7th hole at Hunstanton are lodged in my memory bank and if a piece of land comes up that way then yes I may use 'bits' of those holes. I cant say I am in to totally copying although the thought of replicating a TOC with GPS on a flat dull site has some crazed appeal to me. A par 3 course with replica holes is another possible. I like the principles of the 16th green at North Berwick and the idea of replicating the idea rather than the actual. I know when I talk to Ben Stephens he talks about things being like other holes, when I talk to my staff when we are constructing I might show pictures of bits. I also like the idea of taking a green from another course (perhaps those lovely Painswick pics) and using that green as is but playing to it from another angle, ie say the surface of the 7th at Painswick but played backwards.....sometimes you can have fun reversing pics. So I do think that the way I look at other golf holes would be how you deal with buildings.

[Tim Gavrich]

I think I would be inclined to apply a bunch of the things I like about the Mike Strantz courses I've played to my own course.  To wit: not a lot of rough, very big, very undulating greens where pin positions would vary a ton day-to-day, and good general variety among the holes.  I'd also try to employ railroad ties in spots the way he did at True Blue, Bulls Bay, and Tobacco Road.

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

NONE

Architects design golf holes, not plagerize them.

Getting design ideas from old pictures is one thing, copying is another.

Dick,

Only 251 posts, so I'll give you a break as a new guy. Here is what you'll come to understand if you make the effort to learn:

Good architects employ well-tested FEATURES, not holes. (MacRaynor critics routinely make this mistake.)

This honors the original architects, it does NOT plagerize them.

Thanks for the lesson Bill, I will try to follow the rules of GCA from now on.
I know there are lots of posters that are no longer active on this site for this very reason.
A bunch of know it alls.....................
I will not be replying.......................

[PCCraig]

If cost were not an issue, I would build my course with all short grass.  No rough anywhere.

Yes...and in addition my course would have 18 wild greens.

[Bill Brightly]

NONE

Architects design golf holes, not plagerize them.

Getting design ideas from old pictures is one thing, copying is another.

Dick,

Only 251 posts, so I'll give you a break as a new guy. Here is what you'll come to understand if you make the effort to learn:

Good architects employ well-tested FEATURES, not holes. (MacRaynor critics routinely make this mistake.)

This honors the original architects, it does NOT plagerize them.

Thanks for the lesson Bill, I will try to follow the rules of GCA from now on.
I know there are lots of posters that are no longer active on this site for this very reason.
A bunch of know it alls.....................
I will not be replying.......................

No problem, Dick. You did not break any GCA rules, you just made what I deemed to be an inacurate statement that slams a style of golf course that I really enjoy playing.

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

NONE

Architects design golf holes, not plagerize them.

Getting design ideas from old pictures is one thing, copying is another.

Dick,

Only 251 posts, so I'll give you a break as a new guy. Here is what you'll come to understand if you make the effort to learn:

Good architects employ well-tested FEATURES, not holes. (MacRaynor critics routinely make this mistake.)

This honors the original architects, it does NOT plagerize them.

Thanks for the lesson Bill, I will try to follow the rules of GCA from now on.
I know there are lots of posters that are no longer active on this site for this very reason.
A bunch of know it alls.....................
I will not be replying.......................

No problem, Dick. You did not break any GCA rules, you just made what I deemed to be an inacurate statement that slams a style of golf course that I really enjoy playing.

What part of the second sentence of my post did you not understand.

I think it is yourself that is inaccurate.

With proper respect to a prolific poster, of course.

[Colin Macqueen]

Anthony,

JRP says  ".......I would build my course with all short grass.  No rough anywhere" and I think that would be a wonderful approach with bunkers only around the greens - no fairway bunkers.

Now talking about approaches.....as you stray from the straight and narrow, or the ideal landing areas for a shot at the green, your terrain becomes gradually more and more hillier. Little hills and swales, dips and valleys, really crumpled. In this way as you become inaccurate (and the crumples get worse the longer you hit it!) you pay a correspondingly higher penalty as you have to play off downhill, uphill and side-hill lies. In the same breath you can have relatively flat and safe landing areas that can be reached by the shorter hitters as the penalty has already been incurred with the lack of distance. I obviously want some delineation between my fairways and that could be, let us say 1" deep, mown grass. So how wide would my ideal fairway have to be do you think.... a hundred yards? OK so I need a BIG canvas and some wind! Dream on Colin.

Cheers Colin

[Eric Smith]

Bill B.,

Upon reading the exchange above between you and Mr. Kirkpatrick, I thought I'd mention (in case you hadn't already learned) that Mr. Kirkpatrick is in the golf construction business and has been for quite a long time, having helped design/build over 100 golf courses. Sometimes we misread posts on here (we've all done it), but it is my hope that my making this post would help in better understanding where he was coming from with his initial reply. I know you'll take my post in the spirit it is intended, which is to help.

Cheers

[Bill Brightly]

Dick,

I understood all parts of your post(s). I'll explain mine.

Plagerize is SUCH a strong word. When you start your post with that word, you are begging for a response such as mine. Plagerize means to steal, to take one's ideas as your own. If you profit from plagerism, you are subject to paying monetary damages to the party from whom you plagerized. If you want to use one word to dismiss a professional  in ANY field as a fraud, you would apply plagerism to his name.

It is fine to state that you dislike the use of template features, or that you would never emply them if you were building a course. That is your opinion and your right. There are plenty of people on this site who knock Raynor and others out of the Macdonald school.

But you went over the top and implied that Macdonald stole ideas and claimed them as his own, that Raynor stole ideas and claimed them as his own, that Banks stole ideas and claimed them as his own, that Doak stole ideas and claimed them as his own, that Lester George stole ideas and and claimed them as his own, etc. etc,. As one who tries to learn as much as I can about all architects and all styles, I'm just not going to allow that kind of near-slander to go unchallenged.  Sorry if I hurt your feelings, but this site is dedicated to an open and frank discussion.

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