Why doesn't Art Hills get ripped on this site?

[Bill Steele]

Living in Central Ohio, there are a number of Hills designs that are nearby. My experience with Hills' body of work is that is a mile wide and an inch deep. He is very prolific, yet few of his courses stand out in my memory. Longaberger is a notable exception. Longaberger is located on an extraordinary piece of property: rolling hills which comprise most of the front nine and scenic valleys which comprise most of the back. However, even with the property, most of the holes that stand out to me are located on the front (the more attractive part of the property). Two of the par threes are essentially the same hole (I believe #'s 5 and 12). #8 is an interesting par four which presents  a decision off the tee: either play straight over a hazard to a  flat area or right to a sloping fairway which is extremely kind to a draw. The approach is to a peninsula green. #18 is a demanding hole because it plays long and gradually uphill. #1 is also an intersting hole: a dogleg right which plays uphill to a green sloping left to right with a Pinehurst #2 like slope falling off the front right. It is a solid golf course that is infinitely enhanced by the property on which it is located. Hills also designed the private Winding Hollow in Columbus that I enjoy. However, I think his best public design in Ohio may be Shaker Run in Lebanon (north of Cincinnati) which was originally built as a corporate course for Armco Steel. The one problem with Shaker Run is that there are a few holes that disrupt the flow of the course (they just don't seem like they belong). Longaberger is definitely worth playing but it is pricey (over $100) and tee times for the whole year are opened up in March and are gone within a day or two (those who sell baskets get access to tee times about a month earlier). Longaberger is also going to build a second 18 designed by Tom Weiskopf. However, construction was temporarily halted due to the economy.

[Bryan_Pennington]

Have played HMB and A. Hills course in Hilton Head at the Hyatt complex and enjoyed both.  The HMB site is a incredible and obviously adds to the visual presentation.  The HMB course was soft when I played and would have been better with fast and firm fairways.  Hilton Head was a solid course that I would recommend if staying in the area with many days to play.

[Paul Richards]

David:

You hit the nail on the head.  When I walked off Bay Harbor,
I WAS impressed with the beauty.  However, as I thought
about it more and more, I started to realize just how
disappointing the course was.   It's one of those places that
was good, but should have been much better.  And that is
my impression.  I honestly think with that site, it should have
been a better course.  It just wasn't as good as its potential.

[JakaB]

Paul,

Are you sure you're not talking about Brandon Dunes....

[Paul Richards]

Jaka:

No, I meant the Links and Quarry nines at Bay Harbor.

Not sure where Brandon Dunes is anyways ...

[JakaB]

Paul,

I meant Bandon Dunes....My midwestern twang make me even spell stupid.

[Rich_Goodale]

Half Moon Bay is a very good course.  1* in my firmament, which translates to 6-7 on the Doak scale.

However, Hill's attempt to "improve" the exising Palmer/Duane course at HMB (on whose 6th fairway I resided for 4 years) was a complete "fail to show up for the perfromance."  I'm sure he was paid decent dinero by the Ritz-Carlton people for this latter "effort" but it is abysmal.

JakaB

I think you were thinking of Branson Dunes, in Missouri.  You know, the one that has the green contours based on Marie Osmond's cellulite patterns?  Bandon Dunes is a solid 2**/7-8 "Doak" IMO.

Rich

[David Wigler]

John (JakaB),

Did you really feel that way walking off Bandon Dunes?  If so, I am amazed.  I walked off Bandon Dunes in awe of the way Kidd used the property.  The only glaring flaw I saw was the 16th hole and I was told that was Keiser not Kidd.  I have heard others say that after seeing what Doak did with a similar piece of land, it lessened their appreciation for Bandon (I have not played Pacific, so I cannot comment) but I have not heard anyone say that felt immediate disappointment.  Bandon may or may not be lessened by comparison; Bay Harbor is lessened on its own merits.  The best analogy I can think of is that Bandon may be a '96 Opus One to Pacific's '97 Opus One.  Bay Harbor is a '96 Opus One that had a bad cork and turned to vinegar (A great opportunity lost).

[JakaB]

I have not played Bandon Dunes or Bay Harbor which makes me equally qualified to discuss both....however from my discussions from people who know more than I will anyway Bandon Dunes is best used to see how Tom Doak did a far surperior job at Pacific Dunes.  My ability to see what is good is so clouded by my desire to play I myself am unable to tell what is good from bad...so I rely on comparisons and contrasts within very short time frames or the kindness of others opinions.  For this reason I would only play Bandon so I could better appreciate how good Pacific is...which really makes it a 4 on the Doak scale for me.

[David Wigler]

John,

Outside of GCA, I know three people who have played Bandon and Pacific.  Two felt that Bandon was better.  They both felt that Pacific was a great course but too easy.  Believe me, Bandon is not a 4 in anyone's book.  Bandon was the #3 course in Golfweek's modern rankings for a reason.  As a huge fan of Victoria National and a felllow basher of Quail Hollow, you might even like Bandon better.  That written, I would love to see Pacific and would play either many many times over before I would pony up the $200+ for Bay Harbor.

[JakaB]

David,

I've gotta play Pebble Beach before I play Pacific Dunes...just like I gotta play Pacific before I play Bandon....Now I gotta play Whistling Straights before I play Bay Harbor....this make none of the courses poor choices just choices made through my obscure mix of fantasy and reality that keeps me stable.   Pebble Beach is really the only course I need to play which makes it a 10....Pacific and Whistling 6's and the remainder 4's just cause I would play them if I was there.  Luckily for me I am such a poor gambler even the $500.00 I will spend playing Shadow Creek is the cheapest way I can spend 4 hours without working...so I don't put a monetary value on golf...its all good.

[THuckaby2]

David:

I too have a good non-GCA friend who's played both Bandon and Pacific several times each, and STRONGLY prefers Bandon, for exactly that reason:  Pacific is too easy.  He's a very strong player but also not exactly one who hasn't been around... I toured Ireland and Scotland with him.

I've heard this more common of a sentiment than the rhetoric here would have one believe.

Bandon is a damn good course, Pacific or no Pacific.  Well said in any case.

TH

[Paul Richards]

JakaB:

You said: I've gotta play Pebble Beach before I play Pacific
>Dunes...just like I gotta play Pacific before I play
>Bandon....Now I gotta play Whistling Straights before I play
>Bay Harbor....

Sounds like you got the haven't-been-able-to-hit-a-golf-ball
in-months, midwestern-blues?

I got'em too!

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Wigler,

It's obvious that you've never been exposed to some delicious angel hair carbonara, or linquini bolognese, or you would have left it at meatloaf and tuna.  

If you're in New York, there are more than a few places that will cause you to amend your post, including Il Nido on 46th street, which will serve both plus one more pasta in their tre-pasta special.

Tommy Naccarato,

We have to wean these fellows off of Chef-boy-r-d.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I'm not crazy about Longaberger. The clubhouse sits on a very large hill creating a lovely vista, but it also contributes to the unwalkable nature of the course. Even the less severe sections of the property are awkward from a routing and walking perspective - so there maybe something to that general criticism.

Too sculptured, too much of the typical grading, the green complexes are blah, not enough use of the natural features and the bunkering is forgetable both aesthectically and strategically. Other than that its not bad.  

I agree in theory the 8th should be a very interesting strategic hole, giving the golfer two distinct choices as to how to attack the green on the approach which is guarded by water, but from my limited experience no matter what route is taken the ball will funnel to the exact same position requiring an approach over the water.

[Peter Galea]

SPQR - Little Italy......mm..mm...Good!

[Derek_L]

Shooter,

Speaking of #7 at Oakhurst, how do you like it since the club decided to wrap some fairway in front of the bunker that is just left of the landing area.  I think it was a great idea, it gives you some choices of going right to the original landing area and having a longer 2nd shot to the green, or going to the left and having a more open shorter shot, not necissarily easier thought due to the tight green entrance.  What about Hill's Shepherd's Hollow, althought not 100% Hills as the traditional bunker designs were changed slightly (some flashing) to accomodate the owner.

[Will E]

Derek,
My problem with #7 lies in the green complex. I would nominate it for the one of the worst I've ever seen, even worse than the #15 at Stonebridge in Ann Arbor. You're right though, the tee shot is silly too. The new fairway to the left of the landing area bunker is pretty damn tight. I was paired with the MI section player of the year at Oakhurst in Sept. and I thought he might go nutzo on this hole.

I know Oakhurst well, having played in 36 hole stroke play events there the last couple of years. There are some very fine holes on the property, I really like #8, #13, #14 (this goofy green works!) & 6. This propery was (is) soooo good that the course really should have been fantastic rather than just so so at best.  #7,#9,#10,#11,#17,#18 make this just another Hills course.
If you're a member here you've got a great pro in GEO-BO, and a nice practice facility too.

I haven't seen Shepard's Hollow yet, it's not on my short list.

Go RED-WINGS!

[Bill_Spellman]

Mike Cirba

I did not get an opportunity to read your review of Lighthouse Sound. I live 5 minutes from there, and I am quite familiar with the layout and the owners vision(lack of?). I am curious, did you play Rum Point (P.B. and Pete Dye)  and if so what were your feelings, thoughts? Why did you feel that the course doesn't match wind conditions?    

IMO the courses here in the Ocean City area are designed for the resort traffic and aren't as interesting as they might be, given the proximity to the beach. There are 2 more new courses going in on the old Riddle Farm property, home of the racehourse, Man O' War( I think) I have yet to find out the architect.

Ocean City is about maxed out on courses, given the play figures for 2001 so I wonder about new courses. There are a number of courses that may be for sale, if the right numbers are met.

[Craig Disher]

Bill Spellman,
Have you played Blue Mash just outside Olney, MD? Not the best site and from what I saw during construction and since completion, not very imaginative. It had very intense promotion, though.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bill Spellman,

Lighthouse Sound had a TON of environmental considerations that certainly led to the sprawling, non-intimate routing and I don't hold that against Hill.

To his credit, and I'm sure to the owners wishes, he did certainly try to create something memorable, splashy, photographable, and challenging, and it is hardly your typical "resort" course.

In fact, it's brutally difficult.

As you know, that site is perenially windy, and my biggest complaint is that the greensites that were constructed would have been difficult on the most placid inland course.  Most are elevated, very firm, with severe fall-offs into deep bunkering, wetlands, and other forms of torturous golf.  When you factor in the minimal 15mph wind out there, I had to wonder exactly who the course was built for.

The following link best exemplifies what I'm talking about.  Just imagine trying to hit this green with a 3-wood into a spanking wind.  

http://www.lighthousesound.com/fx/05.jpg

Yes, the green is 18 yards deep!  What the picture doesn't show is that there is no real bailout to the left, over is as dead as short, and right will float to the beaches of Ocean City.

If this course is popular with vacationers, it has to be the home of the 6 hour round and 3 sleeves of balls.

As far as Rum Pointe, I would certainly recommend a visit if you live near there.  While subject to many of the same winds, it is much more forgiving, contiguous, and playable.  There are a number of trademark Dye features out there, some of which work well, and others like the 9th and 18th encircling opposite sides of a lake that is frankly tired and stereotypical.  I think many of the green complexes are pretty well done, and a few holes and particularly approaches get the blood pumping, but it's perhaps a little too placid and even forgiving out there, overall.  In particular, I found there to be very few holes that made you think much from the tee, and that is somewhat unlike Dye.  At best, it's a Doak 5.  

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts if you get over to either course.

[David Wigler]

Patrick Mucci,

I get to New York on business several times a year and invariably end up eating in my hotel.  If that was an offer to take me on a culinary excursion, then I willingly accept and will hold my inclusion of spaghetti in limbo until you have proven me otherwise.  We could sneak in a round of golf as well.

[Bill_Spellman]

Mike Cirba
I have played Lighthouse and Rum Pointe many times, and I definitely have some opinions and observations for discussion.
Rum Pointe: Of the two, I prefer this one. I have played this course by myself, carrying my clubs in a 20 mph mist at 50 degrees. I didn't know where I was and played in 2 hours and 50 minutes. The shot values are better, more run ups, knock downs, bouncing golf. I'm not sure whether you know the story about the Dye's, but P.B. became very ill 2/3 of the way through and Pete finished, changed the course. What strikes me is that the par 5's appear to be all Dad's except for possibly 13, . The course was designed with the wind in mind, with long holes 1,7,16 playing with the normal southerly winds, and some of the shorter holes playing longer due to the wind. If you want to try something fun, come play when it blows from the north. I feel that Lighthouse was built with some of the same considerations in mind. On Rum's first, I have hit a driver, 9 iron from the back, and a drivewr, three wood wedge when the wind switches. I haven't played a course in this area with as much choice on shots and every day is different. More on Lighthouse later.  

[Jeff_McDowell]

Jeff S.

I think the short par-4 (number 3) is the best hole on the course. It's definitely driveable, but that's the point.

For those of you who are not familiar with the hole, it is a 280 par-4 with a large oak in the left third of the fairway at about 250 from the tee. There is a large fairway bailout area to the right of the tree, but your approach to the green has to carry a bunker, stay short of water, and the green is tilted away from you.

The reason I like it is that it can be played so many different ways. I played with a four some and we all played the hole differently. One guy went for the green over the tree, one guy skirted the tree on the left and rolled it to the front edge of the green, one guy hit driver to the fairway bailout area, and I layed up short of the tree with a seven iron. We all had birdie putts.

IMHO that is an exciting, fair, and challenging golf hole.

[Will E]

?