[Ed Homsey]

That does make sense.

I have a feeling this may be winding down for this year.  Hope the New Year brings as many exciting discoveries as 2011.  My thanks to Jim Kennedy, Joe Bausch, Mike Cirba, Wayne Morrison, Mike Sweeney, Rudy Zocchi, and Tom Macwood, for the information they discovered and/or shared, during 2011 that improved the accuracy and coverage of the Travis Society's listing of Travis's golf course projects and consultations.  I'm worried I may have forgotten someone.  If so, please forgive me. It was an incredibly remarkable year!!

I am impressed by the possibilities of GCA.

 

[Craig Disher]

I found a photo of Travis that I've not seen before - taken in 1909, probably near Washington DC.



This photo has been seen before but as a copy from one of the early magazines - either AG or GI. The original photo shows the mounding much more clearly. There's another one from a slightly different angle that I'll post when I have a chance.

[Ronald Montesano]

16th green where? that one pimple back left stand out like a pimple.

[Craig Disher]

16th green where? that one pimple back left stand out like a pimple.

Columbia CC, Chevy Chase, MD. The hole is a par 3, playing from l to r.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Craig-

  Is this photo the same location and line of play for the current 16th green? 

If we look closely, we can see the 15th fairway directly above, the train tracks, and the 2nd fairway. 

Do you know anything about the genesis of the 16th, from this to the version today that is probably influenced by the 12th at Augusta?

Thank you.  I missed playing CCC when I was in MD and WDC.  I did walk it a few times, was not so savvy about finagling access then.  Or, it just didn't occur.

[Craig Disher]

The present green is approximately in the same position but I think the tee was moved to the right. The green in the photos was gone before the US Open in 1921 and as far as I know it is the original; it was replaced by an table top green - perhaps the stream flooded too often - which too was replaced at some point. You're right - the 15th fairway is in the background and the railroad tracks are visible just beyond.

Same green from a slightly different angle.

[Sven Nilsen]

A lot of interesting discussion in this old thread on Travis, including some great information on Roscoe Conkling/Valley View.

I think someone requested an overlay of the original Travis plans with the current layout of Roscoe Conkling park.  Here's the Travis Routing, the current view of the park and an image combining the two. 

To recap the history, Travis drew up plans for a course in Roscoe Conkling Park in the mid-teens, the course was started but not completed until around 1925-7, and then RTJ came in much later to redesign the course.  From the looks of the overlay, and without having the benefit of what Valley View actually looked like when it was built, it appears that the holes planned in the upper left portion of the overlay went by the wayside, and more holes where added in the area around Valley View Rd. 

[Ed Homsey]

Sven--

Thank you for posting that 1916 Roscoe Conkling Park drawn by Walter Travis.  The story of the evolution of that layout into the current Valley View course is a long one, and if you reviewed some of the early postings on this thread, contentious, for some.  Most of the Travis Society's extensive file on the Roscoe Conkling Park/Valley View golf course was provided through the dedicated and thorough research of Jim Kennedy.  An April 4, 1941 Utica Daily Press article, sent by Jim, had a neat column devoted to Valley View.  This column was based on a scrapbook kept by Gordon Edward Kienzie, a Charter Member and Vice-President of the Utica Municipal Golf Association.  At a meeting of that organization that was held on July 17, 1925, Kienzie was one of the signees of those who pledged to be members of a "course that was yet ready to play".  The column goes on to report that "It wasn't until Aug. 15 of that year(1925) that the planned nine-hole course in Roscoe Conkling Park was opened by the late Fred ----then mayor, driving the first ball.".  Sherrill Sherman (a noted Yahnundasis Golf Club member, and good friend of Walter Travis) played a match on the "rough and bumpy" 7 holes that were ready for play.  The column makes reference to the several years during which the course was "talked of---but nothing was done.  The column states that Walter J. Travis designed the course in 1916, with it taking "nine years to bring in play".  There's more to the story, but thought you'd be interested in this part of it.

Appreciate your including the satellite view of the current Valley View course along with the original Roscoe Conkling Park layout so that others can discern the similarities---and differences.

[Jim_Kennedy]

The present green is approximately in the same position but I think the tee was moved to the right. The green in the photos was gone before the US Open in 1921 and as far as I know it is the original; it was replaced by an table top green - perhaps the stream flooded too often - which too was replaced at some point. You're right - the 15th fairway is in the background and the railroad tracks are visible just beyond.

Same green from a slightly different angle.

This photo show the approach to the 16th - the walking path that splits apart in the foreground of Craig's photo is the way to the 17th
Click on the photo and it will enlarge:

[JC Urbina]

Jim / Craig,

Do you know of any other Travis  greens like the 16th at Columbia or 12th at Garden City.

The discussion I here from many of the people  who have  played the green at Garden City are the round sand mounds flanking the front of the green.   

I noticed in the photo of the 16th at  Columbia CC the pimple on the left front of the green was grassed. Just curious.

[Ed Homsey]

I cannot speak for all courses that Travis had a hand in, but of the 20 course of his that I have played, I have never seen anything like that 16th at Columbia or the original 12th at GCGC.  They do remind me of the Donald Ross 7th hole at Thendara Golf Club near Old Forge, New York.

Jim--do you have a date for the 16th hole picture you posted.  Earlier, someone commented that it was removed for the 1921 U.S. Open held at Columbia.  Our understanding is that the redesign done by Travis and Harban in 1919 was in preparation for the upcoming Open.  So, I'm wondering, did Travis/Harban remove the green, or did they create the green but someone else removed it before the Open, or??

Because of its similarity to the 12th at Garden City GC, I'd assume that Travis created it, and I can't imagine that he would have anything to do with removing it.

[Jim_Kennedy]

JC,
I wouldn't - Ed or Chris are your best bet.

Ed,
The photo is from the the July, 1910 issue of The American Golfer
.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Ed,

here's a description of the 16th during the '21 Open tournament:




The full article

http://tinyurl.com/kauu2oz

And a map of the course for the Open

http://tinyurl.com/lxzldq3

[Ed Homsey]

A 10/26/1909 Washington Times article carried the headline, "Travis is Pleased with new Course" at Columbia CC.  The article indicates that the "club managers" had iinvited Travis to inspect their new course, laid out by Barker and Ross.  Travis spent a couple of days "going over the new grounds" and "approved the manner in which the tentative layout had been made by the two professionals".

An interesting article in the July 1921 issue iof Golf Illustrated provides some great descriptions and pictures of several of the holes at Columbia CC.  About the 16th, it merely states, "The sixteenth is but a short pitch shot".  The Feb. 1926 American Golfer hs an article titled, "Short Holes Provide the Thrills".  It features a picture of the 16th.  Though my copy is not great, it seems clear the the contours of the green are different from the 1910 version.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Ed,
This is a photo of 16 at CCC that my friend Bret Lawrence sent, and as he noticed, it looks like "they just filled in between the bumps". 
He thinks it might have been taken during the Open. He also read on Columbia CC's website that legend suggests the 12th at Augusta was inspired by their 16th hole.

Question: Did Barker and Ross 'borrow' the idea from Travis' GCGC hole for the '09 version at CCC - or did Travis have input during the construction?

[Ed Homsey]

Jim--In none of the sources mentioning the Travis visit to Columbia was there an indication that he had made specific recommendations.  Given the wild and crazy greens that are attributed to Ross at Thendara Golf club, I think he could have come up with that Columbia CC 16th.  We also have to consider the fact that H.H. Barker was golf pro at Garden City GC, and had many conversations with Travis about golf course design (according to Travis, American Golfer, 1920).  Tom Macwood was pretty certain that Barker worked closely with Travis in the changes that were made to GCGC in the early 1900s.

I'm finding it difficult to see the similarities between Columbia's 16th and the Augusta 12th.

Would you agree that the earlier pictures of the Columbia 16th show the humps and ridges as part of the putting surface?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Ed,
The photo Bret sent is the same as the top half of the David Moriarty posting from a couple of years ago.
The knobs in the lower half look very wild.


I think it's possible that it could have all been mowed to green height, although these mowing lines seem to suggest it wasn't. It looks more like it was cut to green height inside the mounds and extending to the creek, same as the 'new' green in the upper half of the photo.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Here's a view of 16 from 1921. Th
e changes are pretty clear.

[Ed Homsey]

Can we assume that Travis and Harban made those changes in their redesign of Columbia in 1919?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Yes, I think it's safe to say that Travis and Harban and  Robert White made those changes. I just emailed you an article about it, along with a couple pertaining To East Potomac - one that has Ross and Travis there in 1919.

[Ed Homsey]

Thanks, Jim.  Look forward to seeing the East Potomac info.

I should have included White.  He's credited in our Travis course listing.

[Sven Nilsen]

Ed:

The following might answer your questions regarding Westchester Hills, if you haven't already figured them out (I don't see it listed on the Travis Society website).

April 15, 1926 New York Sun -

[Sven Nilsen]

A little followup on Travis at Columbia.

The later work of Travis, Harban and Robert White leading up to the 1921 U.S. Open has been highlighted before, but I have not seen much mention of the work Travis and Connellan did in 1915 and 1916.

Two items of note.  First, the original 16th was not altered at this time, although almost every other hole on the course was.  Second, it is evident that although the press discussed Harban as the shepherd of the changes that took place, the actual design decisions and the work itself were done by others.

Nov. 7, 1915 Evening Star -



Nov. 14, 1915 Evening Star -





Dec. 1915 American Golfer -



April 23, 1916 Evening Star -





Nov. 26, 1916 Washington Herald -

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()