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Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2011, 03:49:30 PM »


The plot of land shown on the drawing has nearly the same outline as that of a modern map, same notches at the boundaries, etc. Travis fit 15 holes in the same area that Jones placed 18 and three holes in an area Jones couldn't use.

There are numerous articles continuing on for many years about the trials and tribulations of trying to build the original course.   
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2011, 04:23:45 PM »
Thanks, Jim, for posting that Travis layout.  If someone insists on denying the validity of two articles referencing that 1916 layout and the featured article that followed, I'm ready to say to that person, "Believe what you wish".

Tom--I have no evidence that Travis's plans were put into effect for playing Pine Valley in reversed.  But, that doesn't change the fact that he was "entrusted the privilege of working the problem out".  His 1915 article in The American Golfer goes on to say, "with the able assistance of Mr. Crump, a comprehensive plan was finally evolved".  Seems to me that it qualifies as consultation.

Re Ekwanok.  Would you accept a report written by Syd Stokes, longtime patron and Historian at Ekwanok, in which he referred to an action taken by Ekwanok's Board of Governor on Monday, January 2, 1900, when they awarded "Travis a lifetime Honorary membership in recognition of his work in designing and supervising the construction of the golf course"?, or a handwritten letter, from the President of Ekwanok, to Garden City Golf Club, requesting "The President of the Garden City Golf Cl;ub to present to mr. Travis the congratulations of the members of the Ekwanok Country Club upon the great victory achieved by him in winning the Amateur Golf Championship at Sandiwich".  The letter begins, "The Ekwanok Country Club in annual meeting assembled, sends greeting to the Garden City Golf Club upon the occasion of the complimentary dinner given to Mr. Walter J. Travis, to whom it is most indebted for the laying out and development of its course and who was its first Honorary Member---".  The letter was written in 1904, just five years after the course was designed.  Would they have got the facts wrong, in such a short period of time.   I am aware of the 1932 GI item, with the picture of Ekwanok's 13th, the NY Evening Post, June 1904 item, and a few others that mention Dunn as designer, and don't mention Travis.  And, I'm aware that Travis did not list Ekwanok in his 1924 GI ad (he didn't list other courses, also).  Can't account for all of that, but it seems to me that early club records must be given validity.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2011, 05:19:23 PM »
« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 11:58:56 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Joe Bausch

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2011, 06:51:07 PM »
Ed,

I posted the article on Poland Spring here:

http://www.slideshare.net/mws13/poland-spring-golf-course-poland-spring-maine-1917

Mike and Ed,

That slideshare site is not mobile friendly.  Send me the PDF and I'll host it directly on my web server so people do not have to go off-site to read it.

Joe
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Robert Thompson

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2011, 08:31:39 PM »
Agreed -- I never thought a single newspaper account from 100 years ago meant much unless you had some other source material.

I will NOT discuss publicly IMs with Ed that were off list and the tone of their content.  As a journalist though Rob, I know you agree.  Before you publish, you get two sources confirming...not one, and certainly not one that is solely hearsay that was never confirmed in any way post-1916.

Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2011, 09:03:52 PM »
Ed,

After looking through the Travis Society web site you've put together, I'm certainly not going to be one to yell, "Hey, why would you credit Walter Travis for doing this or that?!?!". There's a lot of great info on the site. Thanks. Very, very well done.

What a life Walter Travis lived. Amazing... one of my favourite golf course designers, without a doubt.
jeffmingay.com

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2011, 09:07:40 PM »
Maybe I can start another controversy here by implying that Donald Ross stole the individual grid plan hole drawings-style from Travis. The Travis and Ross grid plans for individual holes are very, very similar. Who used that style first?
jeffmingay.com

Tom MacWood

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2011, 01:54:16 AM »
Ed
You might want to recheck the date of that letter. The first twelve holes did not even open until July of 1900, the full 18 sometime after that. I've seen at least six contemporaneous reports that state Dunn designed the course with the assistance of several unnamed prominent professionals and amateurs. And numerous reports that Herbert Cassard, chairman of the green committee, supervised construction. There are later reports of Travis adding bunkers in subsequent years. Dunn advertised he designed Ekwanok; Travis never took credit for the design.

Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2011, 03:47:05 PM »
Tom--It was minutes of the Board of Governors meeting on"Monday, Januaryu 2, 1900".  The fact that portions of the course did not open until July 1900 would have little bearing on actions by their Board of Governors.  However, that fact does seem to lend greater credence, if the Board of Governors took that action while construction was underway. 

Jeff--Thank you for your comments regarding the blogsite.  Our intent is to provide as much factual information about Travis as is possible.  He was a remarkable man who's influence on golf extended beyond golf course architecture.  The fact that our information comes under scrutiny is of no concern if it enables us to improve on the information.  The style and form of that scrutiny is another matter.  re the Travis/Ross connection, I suspect they had many opportunities to discuss golf course design, and probably learned a lot from each other.  Probably each of us has seen a Ross green that would fit very nicely on a Travis course, and vice versa.

Ed
www,travissociety.com 

Jay Flemma

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2011, 04:28:30 PM »
Ed and Jim, sorry to burst your bubble, but holes 3-7, 13-15 and hole 17 of Jones's layout ARE NOT ON EITHER OF THE MAPS YOU SHOW.  You are dead wrong, and if you bothered to get a map of the present day course you'd see that...but that what happens when you do research on paper instead pf actually going to the course and checking it out for yourself.  Go back to listening to led Zeppelin and wondering if Mordor has hot chicks... ::)

Holes 3-7 are on a massive hill called cardiac hill located across Valley View Road near the Parkway.  Holes 13-15 are also across VV Road on a separate parcel well to the far side.  But go ahead - continue to be very sure of your errors without having seen anything on the ground...
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Jay Flemma

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2011, 05:48:39 PM »
To be more specific, on the present day map (which is upside down), all the holes I refer to (3-7 on Cardiac Hill and 13-15 Road) are all on the south side of the property and south of Valley View Road, none of which appears on the drawing.  Hole 17 is about a 350 yard walk to the west, is a par-5 and plays all along the far western border of what is now the golf course.  None of this is on the drawing Jim provides, so Jim you are wrong when you say Travis drew 15 holes on the area Jones built 18...he drew 15 holes on an area so small it only fits nine or ten.  And for Ed to call this "striking similarities" without going there or even bothering to get a scorecard with a map is specious.

Someone from Utica, please run over to he course and get the course map and you'll see all this far more clearly...or better still, can someone get on google earth and post thew picture so we can see the aerial.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 06:03:10 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Will Lozier

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2011, 07:09:08 PM »
Once again, a simple call to the Chamber of Commerce in Utica will confirm that no one - not the City of Utica, nor anyone else - EVER built anything of Travis's in Utica or Roscoe Conklin Park.    That is proof positive that relying on one newspaper article - hearsay and inadmissible in any court of law - is not reliable without primary source material.  Everyone in Utica knows that years later some local built nine holes, then they bought twp additional tracts of land to get RTJ to build the 18 holes that are there now.  There is not one scintilla of evidence in city of Utica records that indicates that Travis built anything - no contract, map, drawing anything.

Ed, until you start to be far more selective about trusting "research materials" that are nothing more than one news article, you will continue to run the risk of seriously misinforming people.  I suggest you go to Utica and talk to Hank Furgol senior, or the older players that were there back in the day.

Everyone I interviewed agreed...and that includes the local golf historians at the Yahnundasis who know a great deal about Travis's time there...had anything of Travis's been built, it would have been a much bigger deal than one article in the O-D.

Wow, I didn't realize that well-intentioned people making a very genuine effort to accurately document the work of a very important figure in golf history - not just architecturally - was accountable to the standards of the U.S. court system.  Jay, you must have interviewed everyone and anyone with any knowledge whatsoever of this particular design!  

Quoting you again from a previous thread...

"no valley view is NOT built in roscoe conklin park...Conkliin Park is further north and east than Valley View.  I know because I was a member there for years and lived a drive and an 8-iron from VV..on the Memorial Parkway as it happens.  Valley View is due west of my house by about 450 yards."

Judging from your swing on YouTube, this statement seems VERY inaccurate! As a lawyer, perhaps you can present better evidence of said distance...or, better yet, a sampling of your 300-yard 8-iron swing?  I am pretty sure this drive traveled no further than 150!  ;)
  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIy3pAGIPgo

Cheers
« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 10:37:24 PM by Will Lozier »

Joe Bausch

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2011, 08:28:01 PM »
Once again, a simple call to the Chamber of Commerce in Utica will confirm that no one - not the City of Utica, nor anyone else - EVER built anything of Travis's in Utica or Roscoe Conklin Park.    That is proof positive that relying on one newspaper article - hearsay and inadmissible in any court of law - is not reliable without primary source material.  Everyone in Utica knows that years later some local built nine holes, then they bought twp additional tracts of land to get RTJ to build the 18 holes that are there now.  There is not one scintilla of evidence in city of Utica records that indicates that Travis built anything - no contract, map, drawing anything.

Ed, until you start to be far more selective about trusting "research materials" that are nothing more than one news article, you will continue to run the risk of seriously misinforming people.  I suggest you go to Utica and talk to Hank Furgol senior, or the older players that were there back in the day.

Everyone I interviewed agreed...and that includes the local golf historians at the Yahnundasis who know a great deal about Travis's time there...had anything of Travis's been built, it would have been a much bigger deal than one article in the O-D.

Wow, I didn't realize that well-intentioned people making a very genuine effort to accurately document the work of a very important figure in golf history - not just architecturally - was accountable to the standards of the U.S. court system.  Jay, you must have interviewed everyone and anyone with any knowledge whatsoever of this particular design!   

Quoting you again from a previous thread...

"no valley view is NOT built in roscoe conklin park...Conkliin Park is further north and east than Valley View.  I know because I was a member there for years and lived a drive and an 8-iron from VV..on the Memorial Parkway as it happens.  Valley View is due west of my house by about 450 yards."

Judging from your swing on YouTube, this statement seems VERY inaccurate! As a lawyer, perhaps you can present better evidence of said distance...or a sampling of your 300-yard 8-iron swing?  I am pretty sure this drive traveled no further than 150!  ;)
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIy3pAGIPgo

Cheers

Dear Will,

     Beautiful, man!

Sincerely,

Tony Bruno
-----------------------
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2011, 09:18:06 PM »
In all of the rantings about the Travis design in Roscoe Conkling Park, in Utica, NY, a major point of the dissenter is that we're relying on onenewspaper article.  Actually, there were two separate newspaper articles/items that specifically indicated that Walter J. Travis designed a golf course in Roscoe Conkling Park.  Is that sufficient, or do we now need three?  A tiresome, and fruitless debate that has no end, and I apologize for continuing it.  Thanks, Will and Joe for introducing some sanity to this thread.

Ed

www.travissociety.com

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2011, 09:22:39 PM »
Ed,
At the risk of being threatened with another lawsuit, I'm going to go public and state that I have also been the victim of this vitriolic forum member. His contributions to the forum have often been noteworthy and necessary. Once in a blue moon, he decides to howl up the wrong tree.

You do not deserve this attack and I congratulate you on maintaining your perspective and for persevering in your goal of improving the new/improved WJT Society website. Stay the course, friend. Your chart is correct.

RM
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tom MacWood

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2011, 11:16:21 PM »
Tom--It was minutes of the Board of Governors meeting on"Monday, Januaryu 2, 1900".  The fact that portions of the course did not open until July 1900 would have little bearing on actions by their Board of Governors.  However, that fact does seem to lend greater credence, if the Board of Governors took that action while construction was underway.  

Jeff--Thank you for your comments regarding the blogsite.  Our intent is to provide as much factual information about Travis as is possible.  He was a remarkable man who's influence on golf extended beyond golf course architecture.  The fact that our information comes under scrutiny is of no concern if it enables us to improve on the information.  The style and form of that scrutiny is another matter.  re the Travis/Ross connection, I suspect they had many opportunities to discuss golf course design, and probably learned a lot from each other.  Probably each of us has seen a Ross green that would fit very nicely on a Travis course, and vice versa.

Ed
www,travissociety.com  

Ed
Have you seen the January 2, 1900 entry?

The golf club was formed by prominent men who summered in Manchester, Vt. -- James Taylor from NYC, ES Isham of Chicago, George Thatcher of Albany, Clarence Clark of Philadelphia, Clark Burnham of Brooklyn, and Herbert Cassard of Baltimore. How or why would the Board of Governors have met in January?

Your quote recognized Travis for "designing and constructing". 'Designing' was not word used in relation to golf architecture in 1900, or thoughout the 1900s.

Other than the quoted minute entry have you found any evidence to confirm Travis was involved in the design and construction of the original course?

What evidence do you have of Travis designing Youngstown CC?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 11:18:35 PM by Tom MacWood »

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2011, 08:51:36 AM »
Ed and Jim, sorry to burst your bubble, but holes 3-7, 13-15 and hole 17 of Jones's layout ARE NOT ON EITHER OF THE MAPS YOU SHOW.  You are dead wrong, and if you bothered to get a map of the present day course you'd see that...but that what happens when you do research on paper instead pf actually going to the course and checking it out for yourself.  Go back to listening to led Zeppelin and wondering if Mordor has hot chicks... ::)


Jay,

Not so long ago you wrote an article on your blog about the Open at Royal St. Georges, yet you had not even seen the course. Isn't your argument a little inconsistent?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 08:54:48 AM by Donal OCeallaigh »

Jay Flemma

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #42 on: October 31, 2011, 09:46:56 AM »
Yeah, but I never said a different architect who didn't build was there, I never mis-labeled the property as having 15 holes where there were only nine that could possibly fit, and I never forgot to address that eight holes exist on a parcel of land that others neglected to show any one.

You know what?  I'm gonna take the advice above and interview everybody up in Utica and at Valley View on this.  Let's get the Uticans and VV's opinion on all this that's on paper...and I can't wait for someone to post the picture of the huge sign at the corner of Oneida Street and the Parkway that says "Welcome to Roscoe Conklin Park"...which is much further away from VVGC than the old maps indicate.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Jay Flemma

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #43 on: October 31, 2011, 10:41:00 AM »
***Further update*** I have scheduled interviews with reps of VVGC the city of Utica clerk's office and the RTJ society for this week.  They'll also be providing the scorecard - which shows exactly what I have said, that Kennedy's map shows only the land for 9 holes, not 18 - and they're going to see what they have for records.

But until then, they did reply on two points -

"Walter Travis is never built anything at Valley View.  Back in the '20s a guy with a long last name built something.  He wasn't a local, but he wasn't a big name either, and it certainly wasn't Walter Travis."  They also said, "If they think all 18 holes were built on one side of VV Road, they are wrong.  3-7 are across the street and up the hill, and 13-15 are across the street and off to one side.  There's no way to fit 18 holes where what we call the Old Man's Nine is..."

What they call the Old Man's Nine is 1,2, then you cut over and play 12-16, then cut back and play 8-9.  That way you don't have to climb the hill or walk 350-400 yards to 17 tee.

They also may call it the old man's nine because all the  old guys remember when it was only 9 holes to begin with - with the new parcels being purchased much later and becoming part of what Jones built in '39-40.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 03:10:20 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

DMoriarty

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #44 on: October 31, 2011, 03:01:59 PM »
Mr. Homsey,

Thanks for your time and efforts in putting together your list.  Travis is certainly worthy of the attention for many reasons.   But who knew we have all been wasting our time trying to dig up contemporaneous articles and information on this stuff when we could just call the local Chamber of Commerce for "proof positive" of events that happened almost a century ago?   Oh well, we learn something new every day.

I too am interested and curious about what happened at Ekwanok. I haven't called the Chamber of Commerce so my research may be remiss, but I was under the impression that the early reports all pointed to Dunn as having originally laid out the course, with Herbert Cassard (the chairman of the Construction Committee) having supervised and directed the construction.

So your mention of a Board of Governor's action from January 1, 1900 is interesting and surprising.  It doesn't surprise me in the least bit that they would have made him an honorary member-- Travis was quite a popular figure in golf and was a very good person to have around if one was interested in attracting players and guests to the nearby hotel.   Indeed, I vaguely recall reading a few articles indicating that some in golf frowned upon Travis' relationships with hotels and even equipment manufacturers, and that there was some question or issue about whether they were trading on his fame for financial gain, and I've always wondered about the nature of his close relationship with Ekwanok.

What does surprise me the apparent mention that he designed the course.  Can you clarify how you know that the Bd. of Governors "awarded 'Travis a lifetime Honorary membership in recognition of his work in designing and supervising the construction of the golf course.'"   I first thought you were quoting the Bd. of Governor's from club minutes or something, but looking again I am wondering whether you are actually quoting the Mr. Stokes, Ekwanok's Historian.   If so, then where did Mr. Stoke's get his information?   Could it be that Mr. Stokes was speculating about the reasons for the honorary club membership?   Another thing that surprises me is the date.  I was under the impression that the club had just been formed that fall and wasn't even open for play.  I know Travis, CBM, George Low, and W. D. Davis (quite a foursome) played in a tournament the next August, and that this event already been arranged early in 1900, so perhaps the honor was bestowed in relation to the upcoming tournament?

As for letter written in 1904, it is much less surprising.   By 1904 Travis seems to have had a close relationship with Ekwanok and he appears to have been in residence there often, playing in high profile matches and tournaments, and he seems to have become closely associated with the course by around then and was at the peak of his fame.  The course had reportedly gone through the changes and improvements over the years since it opened, and Travis was sometimes mentioned as having advised or recommended the changes, it certainly didn't hurt Ekwanok's reputation to closely associate themselves with Travis, who had gone from becoming famous to being heroic with his victory overseas.  

Here are the first four paragraphs from a lengthy profile of the course called "Golf at Ekwanok" which appeared in the  August 1905:

 This summer marks the fifth season of play on the links of the Ekwanok Country Club at Manchester-in-the-Mountains, Vermont. During this time many of the best golfers in America and England have played over the course, besides the numerous mediocre devotees who have there learned and improved their games.
  After five years of steady development the course is in its prime. In fact, many crack players have emphatically said that it ranks second to none in the United States. The putting greens this season are in absolutely perfect condition, not a single blade of grass being winter-killed during the cold months. The turf through the fair green still retains the springy quality for which it is famous, even after weeks of hot, dry weather.
  The policy of the club in making changes in the course has been to go slowly and to make sure that each new distance and bunker is to be permanent. Already this summer three bunkers have been put in and others are to be added. All of them are of the sand pot type. One has been placed on each side of the green of the short sixth hole. Hitherto a pull or a slice could easily be played for a three. Now the tee shot has to be played for the width of the green. The other bunker has been placed just to the left of the seventh green in such a position as to catch a pulled approach. All of these bunkers have proved effective.
  The distances have been altered materially since the course was first laid out by John D. Dunn. Many changes were made at the suggestion of Walter J. Travis, with whom Ekwanok is a great favorite. He remarked of the course: "It is fine; one of the best in the country." The numbering of the holes has been changed, so that the former third is now the first. This brings eight holes within sight of the clubhouse.


The article then goes into a detailed discussion of many aspects of the club, past and present Committee Chairs, notable golfers and tournaments, the greenskeeper (Tom Morris, nephew of Old Tom,) the Professional (John Ball,) etc.   The author, Clark D. Simonds was either very well acquainted with the club or his source was.   I mention this because it seems to be a reliable account, and while it mentions that Travis advised as to changes later, it leaves little doubt that John Duncan Dunn originally laid out the course.   As you are probably aware, this is consistent with other early accounts of the formation and creation of the course.
___________________________________________

You mention that Travis consulted "with Max Behr" at the Pasadena Golf Club in 1924.  Can you tell us a little about this?  I recall coming across documentation indicating that Travis (with JD Dunn, I think) went after the job of building the public course in Brookside Park (now called Brookside) around that time, but that project eventually went to William P. Bell.   Brookside was briefly called Pasadena Muni something, so I am wondering if this is to project to which you refer?

Again, thanks for your efforts and the efforts of your society.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 03:12:53 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tim_Cronin

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #45 on: October 31, 2011, 09:31:11 PM »
Kudos to Ed Homsey and his group for doing all they can to get it right.

It's a shame a couple of people here write in such condescending terms whenever one comma, much less a reference to one bunker, is out of place. How they can get up in the morning and look in the mirror is beyond me.

Ed, keep up the good work and ignore the members of Jackass Flats Country Club.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #46 on: October 31, 2011, 11:57:50 PM »
Mr. Homsey,

Here is an excerpt from an even earlier and more detailed article on Ekwanok, this one from the March 1902 issue of Golf ("The Official USGA Bulletin,") written by John Morton Marbury.  Really a terrific article for anyone interested in the early history of Ekwanok, as it described not only the brief history of the creation of the course, it also described every hole including a number of the features and the hazards, some photos, and even some early changes.  Like the other article I excerpted, this one also indicated that John Duncan Dunn had laid out the course:

"The new eighteen hole course was first laid out by Mr. John D. Dunn, then gone over by a large number of prominent professionals and amateurs, and a large sum of money expended in draining, rolling, and sodding, under the personal direction of Mr. Herbert Cassard, of Baltimore, chairman of the Green Committee."

While Travis was likely one of the many "prominent" golfers who had "gone over" the course, the only direct mention of him was in reference to the amateur course record of 76, which he shared with C.B. Macdonald.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Sweeney

Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2011, 06:22:00 AM »
Ed,

There may be some clues over at http://www.wilburton.com/about.html, which sits on a hill just south of Ekwanok.

Wilberton is NOT affiliated with Ekwanok today but it has weaved in and out of the club's history and at one time was either owned by the club or club members:

Wilburton Hall became Wilburton Inn in 1945 under Jack Ortlieb’s management. The clientele
were sporting gentlemen who skied, golfed and wagered. The tone was clubby and formal
with tuxedos and fur wraps at dinner. Guests were by invitation only.


I can't see when Wilberton was built but it looks to be around the same time as Ekwanok.

Do you have any original diagrams of Equinox?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2011, 06:38:32 AM »
Ed
In regards to the dates of your Garden City entry, Travis wrote an article in 1906 entitled "The Merits and Demerits of the Garden City Links" in which he discussed the course's weaknesses and what needed to be done to improve it. Shortly after that he began his famous redesign, and those changes carried on through 1909 or 1910. The pro at GCGC at the time was HH Barker and he assisted in the redesign.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2011, 06:51:39 AM »
Maybe I can start another controversy here by implying that Donald Ross stole the individual grid plan hole drawings-style from Travis. The Travis and Ross grid plans for individual holes are very, very similar. Who used that style first?

I'm not sure who was first, but I do know Willie Park-Jr used the grid system too.

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