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Jamey Bryan

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #75 on: November 07, 2011, 08:15:37 PM »
Maybe it's time to talk about some other (possibly less controversial) courses?

Ed, I was somewhat surprised to see Augusta Country Club among the "renovated" course listings.  I called Mark Pritchett, and he was also unaware of anything Travis had done at Augusta (Mark's an Augusta Country Club member).

Do you have information on what Travis did there, and possibly on what course?  (They had two, one is NLE).  With no basis in research, I'd previously though that we might have been the most southerly Ross/Travis "collaboration".

BTW, I'm still working hard on getting some Travis features restored into our layout.

Jamey

Tom MacWood

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #76 on: November 07, 2011, 09:50:45 PM »

About 3 years ago, a member of Spring Brook was looking into the clubs history and learned that the person credited with "designing" their golf course did not exist.  This aroused his curiosity and drove him to spend hours in the Morristown library searching old newspapers.  He found a series of articles from April through May describing Travis inspecting the R.D. Foote estate and later laying out a course of 6000 yards.  Four articles in three separate newspapers, The Jerseyman, True Republican Banner, and The Morristown Topic.


Ed
I'm confused, how does this post answer my questions what was the name of the non-existing architect and have you seen the articles? You also didn't address my questions about Essex County. I'm pretty sure JD Dunn was in France in 1908.

Travis was a great architect, not a good architect, with a very high success rate and a distinctive style, I don't see how muddling his record advances his legacy.

Will Lozier

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #77 on: November 07, 2011, 10:22:58 PM »

About 3 years ago, a member of Spring Brook was looking into the clubs history and learned that the person credited with "designing" their golf course did not exist.  This aroused his curiosity and drove him to spend hours in the Morristown library searching old newspapers.  He found a series of articles from April through May describing Travis inspecting the R.D. Foote estate and later laying out a course of 6000 yards.  Four articles in three separate newspapers, The Jerseyman, True Republican Banner, and The Morristown Topic.


Ed
I'm confused, how does this post answer my questions what was the name of the non-existing architect and have you seen the articles? You also didn't address my questions about Essex County. I'm pretty sure JD Dunn was in France in 1908.

Travis was a great architect, not a good architect, with a very high success rate and a distinctive style, I don't see how muddling his record advances his legacy.

Tom,

I don't see how Ed is "muddling" anything...he has clearly done his research and is open to, nay, inviting ALL evidence either supporting or contradicting the present Travis Society records to GET IT RIGHT.  I very much respect your efforts to find out the truth as well and you clearly have the time, energy, means and curiosity to do your own diligent research.  However, it seems like you are deliberately trying to discredit Ed's efforts by making such statements.  While I love a lively debate, it would seem that this is NOT A COMPETITION...and that we would all like a concrete record of history.  Then again, maybe some of us would not?

Cheers

Tom MacWood

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #78 on: November 08, 2011, 06:49:26 AM »
Will
You're probably right and maybe I have been too critical, but its frustrating when most of these issues (Ekwanok, Youngstown, Lochmoor, GCGC, PVGC, Columbia, Essex County) were brought to his attention over two years ago, and he's apparently done nothing to follow up and correct them. Not only that but he seems to adding to his mistakes with the addition of courses like Spring Brook and Pasadena.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #79 on: November 13, 2011, 04:33:03 PM »
Joe,
Here's a bit more info on Sargowana that contains a slightly more informative map.



Ed,
As pertains to the Travis plan in Utica, I'm sending (IM) you a 1924 article in which the Chamber of Commerce states that "Several years ago the matter(building the course) was seriously considered and a start was made to build the course". It goes on to say monies were expended at the time and that a revival of the plan was now in order. It jives with the many articles from 1916 forward that detail the fits and starts of trying to build the course.
I'm also sending you one that mentions Sherrill Sherman (Travis' good friend from Yahnundasis) as making recommendations for the 1924 idea, and another( an ad)in which the Nester family is mentioned as the 1924 builders of the greens at VV (as well as those at YCC).
« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 06:08:21 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #80 on: November 13, 2011, 08:54:09 PM »
Thanks, Jim, for posting the picture and accompanying article of Sargowana.  A more detailed map that the one in our file, first found by Joe Bausch.  Looks like that would have been a spectacular locaton for a golf course. 

Will look forward to the articles you're sending about golf in Utica.  I have changed some of our Travis golf course projects and consultations as listed on our blogsite. Will next go to work on making the chronological and alphabetical listings more consistent.  A lot remains to be done.

Ed

www.travissociety.com

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #81 on: November 30, 2011, 06:51:04 PM »
The first article only mentions Dunn at Ekwanok, the second reinforces the architectural connection between Dunn and Travis.

The link below the articles will lead you to Travis' accounting of the first round of golf he ever played.
 
New York Herald - July 8, 1900  


The Sun - November 9, 1901



http://tinyurl.com/7ldx3jh
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 06:52:49 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #82 on: December 03, 2011, 11:05:13 AM »
Jim--Your latest posting of articles pertaining to Ekwanok CC and Flushing Country Club are yet another greatly appreciated addition to Travis Society records, and our efforts to develop an accurate and complete record of Travis's career.  It is a never-ending effort that has benefited significantly from your contributions, as well as others, including many of those who have participated in this thread.

Jamey--Recently, I sent Mr. Pritchett the documentation in our files (obtained from the USGA Travis papers) of the work done by Travis at Augusta CC.  It included a letter of thanks, from the 1924 President of Augusta CC, to Travis for "establishing a new green on the lake course".  The file includes an elevation map of the green.  Pritchett informed us that the Lake course no longer exists.  Wish you all the best in your efforts at Camden CC.  I was very impressed with the master plan developed by Kris Spence, and the recognition he gave to Walter Travis as the "Original Designer" of the course.

Ed

www.travissociety.com

Joe Bausch

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #83 on: December 03, 2011, 12:27:00 PM »
Joe,
Here's a bit more info on Sargowana that contains a slightly more informative map.



Ed,
As pertains to the Travis plan in Utica, I'm sending (IM) you a 1924 article in which the Chamber of Commerce states that "Several years ago the matter(building the course) was seriously considered and a start was made to build the course". It goes on to say monies were expended at the time and that a revival of the plan was now in order. It jives with the many articles from 1916 forward that detail the fits and starts of trying to build the course.
I'm also sending you one that mentions Sherrill Sherman (Travis' good friend from Yahnundasis) as making recommendations for the 1924 idea, and another( an ad)in which the Nester family is mentioned as the 1924 builders of the greens at VV (as well as those at YCC).


What is the date and paper for that article above Jim?
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #84 on: December 03, 2011, 01:03:39 PM »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #85 on: December 03, 2011, 10:36:14 PM »
Ed,
Here's an article I clipped and pasted together that places WJT at Haworth/White Beeches in 1920. It's from the Nov-Dec- editon of the New York Evening Telegram. I had this article kicking around for awhile  (when I was searching Emmet/Pelham).  ::) 



The complete page: http://tinyurl.com/83g9uth
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tom MacWood

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #86 on: December 04, 2011, 10:41:31 PM »
Perhaps a couple of years ago, Ian Andrew posted the Travis Society listing of Walter J. Travis golf course projects.  What ensued was a number of challenges to our listings.  We took each of those challenges seriously, and increased our efforts to establish clear documentation, or to indicate where documentation was not clearly established.  The Travis Society's mission has been, and continues to be, the establishment of a complete and accurate listing of original designs, redesigns, or consultations by Travis.  We have no interest in inflating his body of work.

We have just launched a new Travis Society blogsite that includes our most recent listing of Travis golf course projects.  We put it out there for your review.  My thought is:  If it can pass muster on GCA, it should pass muster anywhere.  Will welcome your comments and suggestions.

The blogsite:   www.travissociety.com


Ed
What changes are you contemplating making to the list, and when do you expect to begin correcting it?

DMoriarty

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #87 on: December 04, 2011, 11:49:52 PM »
Jim,  thanks for posting those articles.  The July 8, 1900 not only confirms he laid out the course initially, it also indicates that he stayed involved with the creation of the course at least into the second season.  

As for the relationship with Dunn,  I'd be interested in knowing more about it, especially because I remember seeing something indicating they were still working together (or working together again) well into the 1920's.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #88 on: December 05, 2011, 06:50:41 AM »
I'd like to know more about their collaboration too. For years they have been linked at projects like Essex County and Cape Arundel in subsequent years, but I've never found anything to confirm it. In fact some of the dates of their supposed collaboration are at times when Dunn was not even in the country.

When Dunn designed Ekwanok he sought the advice of numerous amateurs and professionals, and I don't doubt Travis was one of those men, but I don't think those unnamed men deserve co-design credit with Dunn. If there is evidence Travis did advise with the others, I think it would be proper list Ekwanok as a course where he advised, but you better list the long list of other amateurs and professionals too, and make clear Dunn is the architect of record. There is evidence Travis redesigned Ekwanok in later years -- I believe he added bunkers -- and IMO he should get credit for that as well. I'm curious if Travis was responsible for Dunn coming to Flushing in 1901, after all it was WJT's home course and one could argue Dunn was the top man working in America at the time.

Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #89 on: December 05, 2011, 08:27:12 PM »
Tom--If you had kept in touch with the Travis Society's current listing of Travis golf course projects and consultations, you would see that there have been many changes made to it over the past several weeks.  Many of those changes were made in response to documentation that you provided.  Somehow, you seem determined to not give us credit for making changes when the evidence is clear.  In regards to many of your challenges to our listing, you still have not provided us with documentation to support your opinions.  It is not constructive to hear a rehash of your disagreements. Please, just post documentation that supports any disagreement you have with our listing.  And, please do not rehash the Ekwanok/Youngstown listings.  We're dealing with those.  Thank you. 

Ed Homsey


www.travissociety.com 

Tom MacWood

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #90 on: December 05, 2011, 11:05:24 PM »
Ed
What documentation do you need?

I'm sorry I did not credit you for changes you have already made, I was not aware you made changes. What changes did you make?

Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #91 on: December 06, 2011, 12:38:41 PM »
Tom--A major change to the listing, in response to the discussion with you, and giving greater attention to the 1924 GI Travis ad, was designating courses such as Onondaga GCC and Yahnundasis Gc as "redesigns".  I'd have to go through the extensive email exchanges we had in 2010 to identify others that involved dates, primarily.  There are other changes in the works, e.g. YCC.

Documentation I would be most interested in has to do with dates of Travis's redesign/remodeling efforts at Garden City GC.  You seem to view the 1906 Travis article on the Merits and Demerits of GCGC's course as the start of his changes to the course.  I believe there is evidence that following his U.S. Amateur victory at the Atlantic City CC, Travis was concerned about the length of the GCGC course and as Green Chairman, was responsible for the lengthening that took place prior to the U.S. Open held there in 1902.  Is there other documentation that you have, besides the 1906 article, that would pinpoint when his changes to the GCGC course began?  I would greatly appreciate receiving any such documentation.

Thanks,

Ed


www.travissociety.com

Tom MacWood

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #92 on: December 06, 2011, 10:29:59 PM »
Ed
I will send you what I have on Travis and GCGC. The revolutionary design of GCGC that began in 1906 is very well documented.

Are you sure he was green chairman in 1901? One of the old articles recently posted said he was a member of Flushing? In 1901 GCGC was 6134 yards, what did it play to in 1902?

Have you made any changes to your list since this thread began?


Tom MacWood

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #93 on: December 07, 2011, 07:09:51 AM »
Ed
Here is link to an article Travis wrote in 1920 on golf architecture. It begins, "The year 1906 marked a new era in golf course construction in the United States." And he goes on to explain the revolutionary changes at GCGC. He also goes on to say that HH Barker was professional at the club at the time and they often discussed golf architecture. There is a ton of info on the changes to GCGC, if you need it all, I will send it all, but it may take some time to get it together.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1920/ag2333f.pdf

Again, your date on Columbia is off too.

Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #94 on: December 07, 2011, 05:37:51 PM »
Tom--In fact I have made changes to our course listing since this thread began.  Some of the changes have been from info sent us through the GCA messaging system, e.g. Jim Kennedy sent some very interesting items about the Flushing Country Club that resulted in a significant change to our listing.  I continue to be impressed by the research of GCA regulars such as Kennedy, Bausch, Cirba, and others, who have contributed an impressive amount of information documenting Travis's work.

re the link to the 1920 article, if you were a Travis Society member, you would know that this particular article has been required reading for many years.  I think it is one of the more significant pieces of literature written by Travis.  You will find it among the "recommended readings" on our blog site:   www.travissociety.com.  There are other Travis articles on the blog site pertaining to golf course design that you might find of interest.  I believe we have posted every article that he wrote that had anything to do with golf course architecture.  I have to check to see if I posted the 1906 article about GCGC.  If not, it should be there also since it provides interesting insight into his thinking about golf course design.  Will get back to you on the lengths of the GCGC course.

I am not at all confident of the date we have for Travis's work at Columbia.  If you have documentation that specifically establishes the date of Travis's work at Columbia CC, I would very much appreciate it.  We have a 1921 GI article that refers to Travis's work at Columbia, but doesn't say when; then there are club history materials that places Travis's work "around 1916".  When the 56th U.S. Junior Championship was held there, the USGA brochure listed Travis as architect and gave 1910 as date.  It would be great to have more definitive evidence.

Ed

Tom MacWood

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #95 on: December 08, 2011, 07:19:39 AM »
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1919/gi112v.pdf

Ed
Here is an article from Golf Illustrated May 1919 reporting the impending redesign. If you have access to the NY Times in March 26, 1919 it was reported Dr. Harban had arranged to improve the course and had hired Robert White and Water Travis. This was all part of a plan to attract the 1920 US Am, unfortunately that plan did not work out, but they did get the 1921 US Open.

Let me know if you were finally able to open those 11 articles I sent on GCGC. If not I will forward to someone else and hopefully they can figure out why you are unable to scroll through the attachment.

Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #96 on: December 08, 2011, 04:41:20 PM »
Tom---

Thanks for the Columbia CC info.  1919 makes sense considering other information we have.  Will check out those references you mention.

From a couple of news items sent us by Mike Crba, it appears that Travis visited the Columbia CC course in 1910 and 1911 when Barker and, according to the 1910 article, Ross had laid out the course and Travis had an "invitation from the club managers to come to Washing Friday night and spend two days going over the course."  A later article said he approved the "work of laying out the links".

It would be great if you could get those GCGC newspaper articles to ma in a printable form.  I can read them in the PDF you sent, but the text will not print.

Ed

Ian Andrew

Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #97 on: December 08, 2011, 07:32:14 PM »
The Architectural Evolution of Onondaga Golf & Country Club

Onondaga Golf Club was formed in 1898 on a farm owned by Charles Hiscock with a very rough and ready nine holes. The golf course was then rebuilt and improved the following year by member David Campbell. In 1899 Onondaga committed itself to buying the Van Schaick property in Fayatteville which allowed for a far longer and better golf course. In 1901, David Campbell was asked to produce the new nine hole layout on the Van Schaick property. The course began at 2,800 yards, but quickly grew to 3,470 yards by around 1914. This would have been a very long nine holes at that time. David Campbell was also asked to produce another nine holes across the road on Earnest White’s property in 1907 (the current Lyndon Golf Course) making the club into 18 holes. The club continued to lease the Lyndon nine up until 1930.

The reason I mention this history is because three of David Campbell’s holes were kept and included in Walter Travis’s layout, with the 5th and 11th remaining in play today. Skip Wogan removed the 4th in 1983, due to the road’s proximity, but players can still see most of the original hole. While this is an obvious loss, the liability issue was too great for the club to continue with.

In 1917 the club acquired the 94 more acres known as Bang’s Farm in order to become a contiguous 18 holes. In 1919 they then commissioned one of the top architects of the time Walter Travis to layout “a bona fide 18 for Onondaga.” Travis actually designed two layouts, one using the newly acquired land and the existing property, the other included one additional parcel (the Kimber property) not yet owned by the club. The club trusted Travis and acquired the additional 50 acres to build the favored layout. The course was built and opened in 1921.

Onondaga Golf & Country Club is still essentially a Walter Travis Golf course, with 11 holes of this layout still almost completely intact. The holes 1, 2, 6, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18 remain largely as Travis designed them. He also made the decision to keep both 5 and 11, which gives us a course with 13 holes that date back to his original layout of 1921.

In 1928 the club hired Stanley Thompson “the most conspicuous golf course architect in Canada” to come in and “modernize” Travis’s 18 by rebuilding the greens at holes 7, 12, 15 and 17 and by altering some fairways and bunkers. The plan is in the clubhouse archives available for viewing. I am not convinced this work was done because the 7th doesn’t exist and the other 3 greens are excellent examples of Travis’s rectangular green sites and match the existing Travis green sites. Additionally there is not one bunker on the course that appears to suggest that Thompson’s artistry made an appearance at Onondaga. When you look at the bunker recommendations on the plan it appears that nothing was actually done.

Later in 1930, after purchasing more land, the club extended Thompson’s commission to include laying out an additional nine holes (I could not locate this drawing). The depression quickly brought and end to this project and it was cancelled and Thompson was released from his contract. That was the end of Thompson’s time with Onondaga since the club, like many others, had to deal with impact of the depression.

The course saw little happen until 1962. Hal Purdy was brought in to look at the final three holes on the front nine. He looked to add length to the 7th by pushing the green back and to straighten out the 8th and turn it into a par four. Member Edward Collum proposed that the 8th could be a par three set in the trees and the 9th could be a massive uphill par five coming back to the clubhouse. Purdy followed his suggestions and the current 7th, 8th and 9th holes were built at that time. The routing change and holes worked well, but the only problem was this occurred in an era of where there was an emphasis on modernization of golf, so the architecture did not match with the existing architecture from Walter Travis.

In 1982, the club grew very concerned with the proximity of the 3rd and 4th greens to Genesee Street and the liability they faced. Skip Wogan and Samuel Mitchell were brought in and proposed moving the 3rd green left and into the orchard and 4th green to the right and away from the road for safety. The holes were built and opened for play in 1983, but once again the work represented a modernization of the golf course. The 3rd and 4th holes have probably been the least popular changes to the course to date, since they bare even less resemblance to the other Walter Travis green sites.

Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #98 on: December 08, 2011, 10:10:19 PM »
Ian--thanks for that terrific summary of the evolution of OGCC's golf course.  I think, however, that the story is not complete without recognition of the terrific work you did there a few years ago (2009?).  In my opinion, your bunker renovation/remodeling brought incredible life to the course, highlighting its classic character, and your redesign of the 4th and 8th greens was a masterpiece.  They fit beautifully on that old Travis course.

Ed

www.travissociety.com

Tom MacWood

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #99 on: December 09, 2011, 07:06:37 AM »
Tom---

Thanks for the Columbia CC info.  1919 makes sense considering other information we have.  Will check out those references you mention.

From a couple of news items sent us by Mike Crba, it appears that Travis visited the Columbia CC course in 1910 and 1911 when Barker and, according to the 1910 article, Ross had laid out the course and Travis had an "invitation from the club managers to come to Washing Friday night and spend two days going over the course."  A later article said he approved the "work of laying out the links".

It would be great if you could get those GCGC newspaper articles to ma in a printable form.  I can read them in the PDF you sent, but the text will not print.

Ed

The Washington Times reported on 10/26/1909 that Travis visited Columbia during construction, and after going over the grounds said the course was as good as any course in America. It was the first time he had been to the site. The article goes on to say the course was laid out by HH Barker and Donald Ross.

The Washington Post reported on August 8, 1909 that the work of laying out the new links of the Columbia CC will be commenced tomorrow morning by a gang of twenty men, and the course has been planned by HH Barker, who has declared that it will be one of the finest in the USA.

And IMO he was right, it is one hell of a layout.

In September 1909 American Golfer reported of Barker's new design and redesign activities at the time:

"...the following new courses, some of which he is still working on:
Richmond CC, Richmond Va; Waverly GC, Portland, Oregon; Spokane CC, Spokane Wash; Rumson CC, Seabright, NJ; Mayfield Club, Cleveland, OH; Bedford Springs, Bedford, Pa; Columbia CC, Washington DC; Arcola CC, Arcola, NJ."

The courses he was redesigning were Springhaven, Philmont, Atlantic City, and Newport.

Prior the US Open the Boston Globe reported: "The links was originally designed by HH Barker, the professional at that time at the Garden City GC."

The original Columbia's 16th hole was replica of the infamous 12th hole at GCGC; ironically the crazy mounds were gone by the time of the US Open. I don't know if Travis changed the hole (which be interesting to know) or if Dr. Harban removed those features prior to Travis. Ross never listed Columbia as one of his designs, and that one article is the only one that mentions his name (that I have found). The preponderance of evidence points to Barker, but if you (and Mike Crba) believe Ross and/or Travis deserves full credit, so be it. Barker has been getting the shaft for a long time, and continues to (see your listing of Youngstown). I believe Ross consulted at Chevy Chase around that same time, and he has mistakenly been credited with that design too. In 1909 of the two, Barker and Ross, Barker was by far the more accomplished and active golf architect, in large part due to his association with Travis.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 07:21:34 AM by Tom MacWood »

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