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Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #100 on: December 09, 2011, 12:09:53 PM »
Tom--

Not sure where you got the idea that I (or Mike Crba) wanted to give Travis full credit for Columbia.  From the 1910 and 1911 articles sent by Mike, it is clear that the original course was designed by Barker.  One of the articles referred to Barker and Ross.  Travis's involvement at that time was merely as a consultant who was invited to take a look at the course as planned by Barker and Ross.  Keep in mind that Travis was well-acquainted with both Barker and Ross.

The 1919 article you mentioned in an earlier post referred to the the redesign that was to be done by Travis.  A later 1921 GI article described the results of Travis's redesign.  I think it is legitimate for the Travis Society to list Columbia CC as a "redesign" of Travis, and to give Barker credit for the original design.  Seems to me that Barker deserves more attention for his work as a golf architect than he gets.  Your efforts to do that are appreciated.  As you know, from our several email exchanges, the Youngstown listing will be changed.  To interpret our error, as the result of information that turned out to be incorrect, as an attempt to "shaft" Barker is rather farfetched and undeserved.

Ed

www.travissociety.com   

Tom MacWood

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #101 on: December 09, 2011, 03:06:14 PM »
Ed
What articles from 1910 and 1911 are you referring to? I'm not aware of any other article other than the 10/26/1909 article that refers to Barker and Ross or Barker and Travis at Columbia.

I have always said Travis deserves credit for the redesign of Columbia...it was your date I questioned.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 03:14:55 PM by Tom MacWood »

Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #102 on: December 09, 2011, 04:54:34 PM »
Looks like we're getting on the same page, Tom.  You're absolutely correct about raising the question of the date we had for Travis's redesign of Columbia.  And, the 1919 article you sent, and the 1921 GI article we've had provide sufficient documentation.

The other two articles I am referring to are a Washington Times 10/26/1909 item with headline, "Travis is Pleased with New Course".  The article states, "Mr. Travis was always a warm friend of the Columbia Golf Club and has taken a deep interest in the formation of the new country club.  At the invitation of the club managers he came to Washington Friday night and spent two days going over the course that was laid out by H.H. Barker, of the Garden City Golf Club, and Donald Ross of the Oakley Club, of Boston, and the Pinehurst Club."

The second article is from 2/19/2011 Washington-Herald.  It quotes Dr. L. Lee Harban, member of Columbia CC as saying, "The work of laying out the links has been approved by Mr. W. S. (sic) Travis and other prominent authorities on golf".

I mentioned the two articles a few posts ago, and indicated that Mike Crba had discovered them for us

Re Ian Andrew's synopsis of the evolution of Onondaga GCC's golf course, and my subsequent post.  I failed to mention that a June 3, 1917 Syracuse Post-Standard article describes the two days of work by Travis in developing plans for remodeling the OGCC course.  The article states that Travis's completed plan was expected by the club.

One further note about Onondaga GCC.  In a Syracuse Post-Standard, 4/20/1919 article, sent to us by Wayne Morrison, it is announced that "Construction of New Course for Onondaga Club is to start This Week".  It identifies W.S. Flynn as the contractor who will be carrying out Travis's plan. 

Flynn was a very busy man during that period of time since he was also building the Westchester-Biltmore courses.

Ed

www.travissociety.com

Tom MacWood

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #103 on: December 10, 2011, 12:55:37 PM »
Ed
According to the Washington Post construction of the Columbia course began August 8, and obviously Barker planned the course at some point before that. Travis visited October 24 and 25. This is the rest of the article.

"Mr. Travis was always a warm friend of the Columbia Golf Club and has taken a deep interest in the formation of the new country club.  At the invitation of the club managers he came to Washington Friday night and spent two days going over the course that was laid out by H.H. Barker, of the Garden City Golf Club, and Donald Ross of the Oakley Club, of Boston, and the Pinehurst Club. Mr. Travis was surprised at the fine lay of the land as soon as he saw it and after going over it became enthusiastic as to its possibilities. He declared he never saw 128 acres of land that were so well adapted to the construction of a good course and approved the manner in which the tentative layout had been made by the two professionals. He said he did not think there could be found better facilities for good golf in the South and that if the present plans of the club were carried out the Washington would have a golf course unsurpassed by any in the country. Mr. Travis returned to New York last evening."

I'm not sure where you and Mike Crba came up with the idea Travis visited the course in 1910 and 1911. I only see evidence of the one visit in 1909. Also in your original post you made it seem as if Travis was involved in the planning, or at least involved in approving the plans before the fact. Basically what he did was give a thumbs up for the plan already devised and in the process of being built. And he wasn't the only one, Harban said other authorities had given the thumbs up too. It was pretty common back then to have a prominent player come out look over your course and for him to sing its praises, especially when they are trying to attract new members. I've seen numerous examples of Travis doing the same at other courses.

Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #104 on: December 10, 2011, 04:48:35 PM »
Tom---I mistakenly reported the 1909 article as a 1910 article.  That is the first article to refer to Travis's visit.  The second article was 1911, though I believe the reference to Travis approving the "work of laying out the links has been approved by Mr. Travis" is actually a reference to his 1909 visit (though that is a guess.).  I have never indicated, nor even implied, that Travis was involved in the planning; the 1909 and 1911 articles made it very clear that he was there merely to inspect work and planning that was already completed.  There would be no reason to think Travis had anything to do with the "planning".  Don't know where you got that idea.  And, at this point, I think you should leave Mike Crba out of this.  I had merely credited him with providing us with the 1909 and 1911 articles.

At this point, it appears that we are of the same page on the development of the Columbia CC course, and Travis's involvement there, so further discussion will not contribute any better understanding.  Time to move on.

Ed

Tom MacWood

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #105 on: December 10, 2011, 05:29:58 PM »
Ed
I don't think we are on the same page. Based on those two articles you told me you were going to list the original Columbia as a course Travis consulted upon. Are you going to make note of the other authorities that also approved of the plan? What exactly did Travis contribute?

Tom MacWood

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #106 on: December 10, 2011, 05:32:17 PM »
Ed
How do you differentiate between a design, redesign, and consultation?
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 05:45:08 PM by Tom MacWood »

Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #107 on: December 10, 2011, 05:48:52 PM »
I believe that any reasonable person, after reading the 1909 and 1911 Washington newspaper articles, would conclude that Travis's role at Columbia CC in 1909 qualifies as "consultation".  He was specifically invited by the club and, according to the 1909 report, he spent "two days going over the course".  It meant enough to them, or specifically, to Dr. Harban, that Travis's approval was mentioned specifically in the 1911 account.

If Travis's time at Columbia CC in 1909 does not qualify as "consultation" to you, Tom Macwood, so be it.

No--I don't want anything further from you, unless it is factual and contributes positively to our understanding of Travis's involvement in the development and/or design of golf courses.


Tom MacWood

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #108 on: December 11, 2011, 12:07:11 AM »
Ed
I'm sure your intentions are pure, but you are distorting and confusing Travis's architectural record. In fairness, you are not alone, most of these architectural associations do the same.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #109 on: December 11, 2011, 02:15:06 PM »
Ed, I'm not sure you have this article on Garden City CC from the Dec 9, 1917 edition of the NY Herald:

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #110 on: December 11, 2011, 04:26:27 PM »
Joe--

That is a terrific article!  We have other early GCCC articles, dating back to 1916, but none of the articles in our file quote Travis's reactions to the course.  That is one of the few times I have seen a public statement by Travis in which he had high praise for one of his courses.  A very nice addition to our GCCC file.  We have appreciated their interest and support as a Travis Society Member Club.

Thanks for sharing your research.

Ed

Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #111 on: December 11, 2011, 04:29:35 PM »
I have been asked to post the following comments:

I find it rather ironic that someone would confuse me as a person who
would give design credit for consulting on someone else’s plan.  There
have certainly been others on GCA over the years who tried to assign
design credit to consultants brought in to “approve” others plans, but I
would certainly not be included among them.

Walter Travis being brought in by Columbia to go over the work over two
days and “approve” the proposed layout done by Barker and Ross, both who
were at early stages in their design careers with very little built yet
“on the ground”, is not surprising.  After all, Barker was a protégé
of Travis, who had taken him under his wing at Garden City, and the
articles also point out that Travis had a strong interest in the new
course at Columbia.  Similarly, Travis had worked with Ross in the
original design of Pinehurst #2 and had encouraged Ross to employ more
stringent and “scientific” bunkering there.

Not surprisingly, as Barker’s reputation grew he was also called in as a
consultant by some to “approve” proposed work planned by others.  For
instance, at Atlanta Athletic Club’s East Lake course, partially in
reaction to the Southern Open in 1909 when Barker torched the course
with a then unheard of 69, Club President (and later head of the green
committee) and amateur-sportsman George Adair travelled around the best
courses in the country to study bunkering with the idea of making the
East Lake course more challenging.  He put together a comprehensive
bunkering plan, some of which he implemented over the fall/winter of
1909-1910, but then brought in Barker to make additional suggestions,
but “there was not a trap added by Barker that he (Adair) had not
(already) planned one to be placed near the same spot.  His idea had
been to catch the “nearly-good” shot of the good player…”.

More importantly, amateur sportsman Adair’s study of the course Tom
Bendelow originally designed for the East Lake club in 1906 led him to
the realization that it was rather deficient, particularly from a
routing and balance standpoint.  In 1912 he announced a series of
proposed comprehensive changes that exists as the routing still in play
at the East Lake course today, which is often incorrectly credited to
Donald Ross.  After drawing up plans for an extensive re-routing, of
which only 5 of the Bendelow holes was retained (today’s holes 9, 10-13)
but a number of existing greensites retained, Adair sent those plans to
Barker for his consultation.

In November 1912 it was reported; “His (Adair) ideas have been submitted
to H. H. Barker, who has gone over them thoroughly and has put the stamp
of approval on them, and it is most probable that work will begin on the
proposed changes within a short time.”

So, I think in this case, it would be fair and accurate to list Adair as
the designer, or “architect”, and Barker as the consultant.  Barker
didn’t create the plans, he merely consulted on them.  Similarly, in
the case of Columbia, Barker was the architect (and probably Donald Ross
to a lesser degree) while I think it’s certainly fair and accurate to
list Travis as the consultant.

Now, where have I hear all of this terminology before??  ;)   

Have a great day, everyone!

Mide Crba

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #112 on: December 11, 2011, 04:36:19 PM »
This one is easy to figure out - just an inspection.  ;D



Edit: The article came from the NY Herald, Friday, Dec 9, 1910. There are some articles mentioning that the city started making improvements and adding new holes to the course within a few years after Travis' inspection.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 05:04:16 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #113 on: December 11, 2011, 05:34:08 PM »
Thanks, Jim.  An interesting article, and Travis's response is not surprising, given his great interest in the broad area of turfgrass management, as well as golf course design.  Are you suggesting an "inspection" category :-\

Ed

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #114 on: December 11, 2011, 05:36:10 PM »
No!  ;D
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Joe Bausch

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #115 on: December 11, 2011, 07:33:59 PM »
For all those not so familiar with the area, this Garden City COUNTRY CLUB is a different club than the more wrote about Garden City Golf Club!  They are located in the same neck of the woods but GCGC Is not the same as GCCC!  ;)

But I'm just telling you things that Google Earth would show you.   I hope at some point to bring you both clubs for my camera's lens.  :)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #116 on: December 11, 2011, 07:50:55 PM »
Got it, Jim!!

Good point, Joe.  GCCC is just down Stewart Ave from GCGC.  While at GCGC a few years ago, one of their members said, of GCCC, "we get most of the attention around here, but GCCC is a wonderful golf course." 


Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #117 on: December 13, 2011, 12:38:54 AM »
Ed,

Here's more corroboration of Travis' plans for Roscoe Conkling Park:

Mr. Travis' Visit
The visit of Walter J Travis, the golfing expert, last week, for the purpose of laying out the public golf course in Roscoe Conkllng Park showed that  the city administration not only proposes to go right ahead with the construction of the course but also that it proposes to have ultimately one of the finest golf courses in America.  Mr. Travis found the opportunities for such development ideal and the lay-out adopted on his recommendation will provide it.

The link will take you to the article, found in The Utica Herald, which is the third bit of evidence referencing WJT as the original planner. 

Third column from the left, a third of the way down the page.
http://tinyurl.com/c7n4wld

p.s. check your inbox
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #118 on: December 13, 2011, 05:54:13 AM »
Ed,
The first four articles, along with the one above, should put to rest any doubt about Travis' involvement at Roscoe Conkling Park.   ::)

Article mentioning the holes at Roscoe Conkling Park and Travis' involvement, along with his heading to Buffalo to layout Park GC  
http://tinyurl.com/cvp7rll

Direct reference to Travis in Utica, this time from 1925 and saying the course got put on hold because of WW1
http://tinyurl.com/c33efu3

Reference to Travis and Sherrill Sherman at Roscoe Conkling Park
http://tinyurl.com/bturmfa

1941 article explaining who got the modern course going, including a nod to Travis. Article contains info about Yahnundasis
http://tinyurl.com/ceb2hny

Travis making trapping recommendations at Yahnundasis
http://tinyurl.com/ctnmeko

Travis at Utica CC (now Twin Ponds) and Yahnundasis
http://tinyurl.com/bwjejpo

More Yahnundasis
http://tinyurl.com/czy7j8f

Freak accident at GCGC involving Travis
http://tinyurl.com/bwgns8q

Travis at Columbia  
http://tinyurl.com/d9lkmha

More Travis at Columbia  - article calls him the club's consulting architect
http://tinyurl.com/c4twtt9

Travis to lay out 5 courses in Patchogue, LI - wonder if any got built?
http://tinyurl.com/bvfqrao

Travis makes agronomy suggestions at Van Cortland
http://tinyurl.com/d78gbz7

New article about Stamford GC, NY -  attributes the whole course to Travis
http://tinyurl.com/cxzgg99

Travis inspects property for Woodway CC in Connecticut...
http://tinyurl.com/cmj6p2

...but it looks like Woodway chose Willie Park
http://tinyurl.com/7rut2ju
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 05:55:47 AM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ed Oden

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #119 on: December 13, 2011, 10:11:09 AM »
Freak accident at GCGC involving Travis
http://tinyurl.com/bwgns8q

Electric mowers?  In 1908?  Who knew?

Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #120 on: December 13, 2011, 12:14:28 PM »
Jim--

I've had a replace an ink jet cartridge and get a larger external hard drive!! :)

You have provided a great treasure-trove of information.  From the information on Roscoe Conkling Park/Valley View, there is no doubt that they used Travis's original plans.  Though it may have been modified slightly, the major ingredients are there.  I think we knew that from a careful comparison of the current Valley View layout with the original Travis plans.  It began to make sense to me that they would have eventually used Travis's plans when I learned that Sherrill Sherman was involved.

Very interesting, informative, and valuable information.  Have you exhausted the "Travis" search on Fulton History.

Can't express how much I appreciate your extensive, positive contributions to the documentation of Travis's part in the design, care, and improvement of golf courses.

Who knew there were electric mowers!!??  That's a new one on me.  Sounds like he was lucky to have escape with no serious injury.  Because it was reported in the Utica paper and referred to his notification of friends, it causes me to adjust my thinking about when he first was introduced to Utica and, probably, Yahnundasis.  I have thought that he first went there in 1909 because of the President Taft/James Sherman connection.  Perhaps not.

Thanks again.  This has become fun again!!

Ed

www.travissociety.com

Joe Bausch

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #121 on: December 13, 2011, 12:39:56 PM »
Ed,
The first four articles, along with the one above, should put to rest any doubt about Travis' involvement at Roscoe Conkling Park.   ::)

Article mentioning the holes at Roscoe Conkling Park and Travis' involvement, along with his heading to Buffalo to layout Park GC  
http://tinyurl.com/cvp7rll

Direct reference to Travis in Utica, this time from 1925 and saying the course got put on hold because of WW1
http://tinyurl.com/c33efu3

Reference to Travis and Sherrill Sherman at Roscoe Conkling Park
http://tinyurl.com/bturmfa

1941 article explaining who got the modern course going, including a nod to Travis. Article contains info about Yahnundasis
http://tinyurl.com/ceb2hny

Travis making trapping recommendations at Yahnundasis
http://tinyurl.com/ctnmeko

Travis at Utica CC (now Twin Ponds) and Yahnundasis
http://tinyurl.com/bwjejpo

More Yahnundasis
http://tinyurl.com/czy7j8f

Freak accident at GCGC involving Travis
http://tinyurl.com/bwgns8q

Travis at Columbia  
http://tinyurl.com/d9lkmha

More Travis at Columbia  - article calls him the club's consulting architect
http://tinyurl.com/c4twtt9

Travis to lay out 5 courses in Patchogue, LI - wonder if any got built?
http://tinyurl.com/bvfqrao

Travis makes agronomy suggestions at Van Cortland
http://tinyurl.com/d78gbz7

New article about Stamford GC, NY -  attributes the whole course to Travis
http://tinyurl.com/cxzgg99

Travis inspects property for Woodway CC in Connecticut...
http://tinyurl.com/cmj6p2

...but it looks like Woodway chose Willie Park
http://tinyurl.com/7rut2ju

Dear Jim,

Excellent stuff.

Sincerely,
Jay F.
-------------------
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #122 on: December 13, 2011, 01:48:23 PM »
Dear Jim,

Excellent stuff.

Sincerely,
Jay F.
-------------------

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

p.s. glad I wasn't drinking anything carbonated when I read this!
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #123 on: December 13, 2011, 04:09:42 PM »
You gotta have some fun with this, occasionally.

I'm sure you're puzzling over this, as am I, Jim, i.e. the Patchogue project.  That was to be a major project..  With all of the initial splash in the news, you would think that there would be equal coverage if it either failed to develop, or otherwise.

Have a happy, merry, peaceful holiday--whatever you may be celebrating!!

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #124 on: December 13, 2011, 06:52:53 PM »
Ed,
Yes, it's puzzling but not unexpected. When a plan is being put together someone's out bugging reporters to make it news,  if it fails there's no one out bugging the reporters, and when you think about it, why would they?

 

Happy Holidays to you and yours.
(By the way, I see Mike C. was promoted. Nice Christmas present for him and his family  :)  ) 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

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