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Ed Homsey

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Walter J. Travis course listing
« on: October 27, 2011, 11:11:48 PM »
Perhaps a couple of years ago, Ian Andrew posted the Travis Society listing of Walter J. Travis golf course projects.  What ensued was a number of challenges to our listings.  We took each of those challenges seriously, and increased our efforts to establish clear documentation, or to indicate where documentation was not clearly established.  The Travis Society's mission has been, and continues to be, the establishment of a complete and accurate listing of original designs, redesigns, or consultations by Travis.  We have no interest in inflating his body of work.

We have just launched a new Travis Society blogsite that includes our most recent listing of Travis golf course projects.  We put it out there for your review.  My thought is:  If it can pass muster on GCA, it should pass muster anywhere.  Will welcome your comments and suggestions.

The blogsite:   www.travissociety.com


Mike Sweeney

Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2011, 06:02:02 AM »
Looks very good.

The "Golf Course Architect" link and then the course directory is a little buried. I would put that in the main menu. That is the main content that people will read, I think.

I was surprised to see Poland Spring (Maine) on the list as it felt all Ross to me when we played it. The club has it listed that Travis came after Ross on their website. Any idea what he did at Poland Spring?

« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 10:28:57 PM by Mike Sweeney »

Tom MacWood

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2011, 06:39:37 AM »
Ed
What changes did you make to the list? HH Barker designed Youngstown; I see no mention of his name. Listing Travis as a primary architect at PV is extremely deceiving, and IMO brings your entire list into question.

On the other hand, I must say in fairness to you, the lists of all different architect associations are questionable because they have an obvious and understandable bias toward their man, and your list is no more or less questionable than the others (with the possible exception of the Mackenzie group, which I think tries best to get it right).

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2011, 09:50:16 AM »
Ed,
Nice looking site.

In some cases (like Poland Springs) the chronological list differs from the alphabetical list.

C- 1916 — Poland Spring Golf Club (with A.H. Fenn),  South Poland, ME (r)

A-  Poland Spring Golf Club (R), South Poland, ME — 1916 - Original designers, Arthur H. Fenn, 1895, Donald Ross, 1912

Could be a bit confusing.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2011, 10:54:32 AM »
re the buried Golf Course Architecture page.  I've worried about that, and appreciate your comment.  I think it will work better if we change the order of Travis's career fields.  My son will appreciate another task connected with this blog!!

re Poland Spring.  I thought we made it clear that it was a redesign by Travis, though I agree with you, Jim, that the differences between the chronological and alphabetical listing may be confusing.  The alphabetical listing was a last minute creation in which I tried to identify original designers, and other designers, who worked on the course.  Despite the implication of one of the previous posts, we are dedicated to proper attribution and have spent considerable time striving for that goal.  Even taking the advice of those who sometimes become a little nasty.  And, of course, we always welcome any evidence that comes our way that leads to improving our listing.

The September 2, 1916 issue of the Poland Spring newsletter, The Hill-Top, states, "With their customary desire to improve things that are already good, the management this week employed Walter J. Travis to give expert advice as to possible improvements to be made in the future."  It went on to say that Travis "spent last Saturday and Sunday looking over this course, and pronounced the general location of the links to be one of the finest".  "Under his expert counsel attempts to perfect the course will be made in the improvement of the greens and the location of tees----old hazards will be removed, and new ones of the most improved design will take their places".  Then, in the July 14, 1917 issue of The Hill-Top, there is a hole-by-hole description of the golf course changes that were done "under the direction of Professional A.H. Fenn and Walter J. Travis".

What I should do is scan The Hill-Top page that has the hole-by-hole descriptions and post it.  If I can figure out how to do that.  Will give it a try.

Poland Spring is planning a 100th year celebration of Ross's involvement there, next year, and have asked us to consider a joint outing of the Ross Society and Travis Society as part of that celebration.  Would be a great get-together.

Re Youngstown CC. Tom, if you will send me a copy of the documentation that you have about Barker's involvement at Youngstown, I would appreciate it, and give it the serious consideration it deserves.  It is incredible to me---though not beyond the realm of possibility, I know----that with all of the interest and celebration at Youngstown CC during this season, accompanied by several calls to us for Travis-related materials, that someone there doesn't know about Barker being the original designer.  Again, please send us the documentation.

Ian Andrew

Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2011, 11:14:40 AM »
Tom,

Just share you opinions and information with Ed. They want an honest list, that's all the rest of us can ask for. I think you’ll find Ed an excellent listener. They have continuously tweaked the list every year as new information is gained.

A perfect example of the grey in attribution will be Rumson Country Club (one which you have all the information in your possession) where the designation of architect of record is made for both Barker and Travis at the exact same time in different publications.

I have no idea how you find the truth from six different sources when both are listed as the designer.


Ed,

Nice to see you on site.


To all:

Ed is the nicest and most sincere man I know, please help him all you can.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2011, 11:39:33 AM »
I'm happy to see my finding of Sargowana proudly displayed on the site.  At some point I will get to the Brooklyn Public Library and I bet they might have more info on it.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2011, 03:33:09 PM »
I'm happy to see my finding of Sargowana proudly displayed on the site.  At some point I will get to the Brooklyn Public Library and I bet they might have more info on it.

Joe,
I had the same feeling seeing the ones I came across,  Roscoe Conkling Park and Stamford Golf Club, displayed on the site.  

A lot of credits should accrue to the folks who create and maintain the Society sites.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 03:34:50 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jay Flemma

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2011, 04:05:48 PM »
Once again, a simple call to the Chamber of Commerce in Utica will confirm that no one - not the City of Utica, nor anyone else - EVER built anything of Travis's in Utica or Roscoe Conklin Park.    That is proof positive that relying on one newspaper article - hearsay and inadmissible in any court of law - is not reliable without primary source material.  Everyone in Utica knows that years later some local built nine holes, then they bought twp additional tracts of land to get RTJ to build the 18 holes that are there now.  There is not one scintilla of evidence in city of Utica records that indicates that Travis built anything - no contract, map, drawing anything.

Ed, until you start to be far more selective about trusting "research materials" that are nothing more than one news article, you will continue to run the risk of seriously misinforming people.  I suggest you go to Utica and talk to Hank Furgol senior, or the older players that were there back in the day.

Everyone I interviewed agreed...and that includes the local golf historians at the Yahnundasis who know a great deal about Travis's time there...had anything of Travis's been built, it would have been a much bigger deal than one article in the O-D.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 04:08:53 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Robert Thompson

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2011, 04:20:18 PM »
Mellow Jay!

These things are a process. No need to be so aggressive, especially if Ed and co are actually open to information like that which you are supplying.



Once again, a simple call to the Chamber of Commerce in Utica will confirm that no one - not the City of Utica, nor anyone else - EVER built anything of Travis's in Utica or Roscoe Conklin Park.    That is proof positive that relying on one newspaper article - hearsay and inadmissible in any court of law - is not reliable without primary source material.  Everyone in Utica knows that years later some local built nine holes, then they bought twp additional tracts of land to get RTJ to build the 18 holes that are there now.  There is not one scintilla of evidence in city of Utica records that indicates that Travis built anything - no contract, map, drawing anything.

Ed, until you start to be far more selective about trusting "research materials" that are nothing more than one news article, you will continue to run the risk of seriously misinforming people.  I suggest you go to Utica and talk to Hank Furgol senior, or the older players that were there back in the day.

Everyone I interviewed agreed...and that includes the local golf historians at the Yahnundasis who know a great deal about Travis's time there...had anything of Travis's been built, it would have been a much bigger deal than one article in the O-D.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Jay Flemma

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2011, 04:38:37 PM »
I will NOT discuss publicly IMs with Ed that were off list and the tone of their content.  As a journalist though Rob, I know you agree.  Before you publish, you get two sources confirming...not one, and certainly not one that is solely hearsay that was never confirmed in any way post-1916.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Dan Boerger

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2011, 04:47:12 PM »
Jay - I did not see the article ... and as I get older my recollection of Utica fades ... I wonder what locals built those original holes, what they look like, and if anything at Valley View now reflects those holes?

BTW, Yahnundasis has some really fantastic holes and I think John Foley (or maybe it was you Jay!?) had some great photos of the place and posted it a while back.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2011, 05:13:34 PM »
re Mike Sweeney's post, and his concern that the golf course architectural section was "buried", I would like his reaction to the change that has been made to the Home page, i.e. the Quick Links along the right side of the page.  I'm hoping those will make those important sections more visible.

Jay is absolutely correct.  There is no evidence that Travis had anything to do with the golf course that is in Roscoe Conkling Park in Utica, NY.  There was a large, feature article published in September 1916 that featured a map of a "proposed public golf course in Roscoe Conkling Park", designed by Walter J. Travis.  This article had been preceded by another article that announced the "Park Board" proposal for "the establishment of a public golf course in Roscoe Conkling Park" and continued with the statement, "The other day Walter J. Travis laid out the course and his plan will be pictured in tomorrow's Utica Sunday Tribune".  

There has been speculation---and I emphasize, speculation--that Travis' layout might have been used, in part, for the Valley View Municipal Golf Course that currently occupies much of the site on which the Travis layout was to be built.  The reason for the speculation is that there are marked similarities between the two layouts.  That's as far as one can go.  I will eliminate the reference to that speculation that I included in the alphabetical listing of Travis golf course projects in the blogsite.  I will add that "There is no clear evidence that Travis's layout was ever constructed".  That probably won't satisfy anyone, but I'll feel better about it!

Just alerted to the post by Dan.  I think I addressed the question about whether "anything at Valley View now reflects those holes".  I would suggest taking a look at the September 3, 1916 Travis layout and compare it with the February 16, 1936 (I beleive--the year is obscured) proposed layout of Valley View Municipal Golf course, as well as a satellite image of current Valley View course, and make your own judgement.
 
I agree with Dan regarding Yahnundasis, there are some terrific holes there, and some several wonderful examples of Travis green sites.  The Travis Society meeting there in July was enjoyed by all.  A grand old club with which Travis had a special relationship dating back to 1909, at least.

Appreciate all of the comments and hope that this process will result in an improvement of our product, as well as increase awareness of it, of course.

Ed

www.travissociety.com

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2011, 06:14:22 PM »
Ed
Very nice - keep up the great work
Thank you!
Mike
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2011, 07:04:39 PM »
I'm happy to see my finding of Sargowana proudly displayed on the site.  At some point I will get to the Brooklyn Public Library and I bet they might have more info on it.

Joe,
I had the same feeling seeing the ones I came across,  Roscoe Conkling Park and Stamford Golf Club, displayed on the site.  

A lot of credits should accrue to the folks who create and maintain the Society sites.


Well, Jim, without a second confirming source I guess my finding is worthless.  The word according to Flemma!  ;)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2011, 08:09:19 PM »

Re Youngstown CC. Tom, if you will send me a copy of the documentation that you have about Barker's involvement at Youngstown, I would appreciate it, and give it the serious consideration it deserves.  It is incredible to me---though not beyond the realm of possibility, I know----that with all of the interest and celebration at Youngstown CC during this season, accompanied by several calls to us for Travis-related materials, that someone there doesn't know about Barker being the original designer.  Again, please send us the documentation.


Ed
With all due respect I will send the documentation again, I believe I still have your email address. Why would you list Pine Valley as an original Travis design? Your list gives the impression Travis designed Ekwanok...I think it is pretty clear Dunn designed the course with the input of numerous individuals. Have you found evidence of Travis having a major involvement in the design? I think it would be better if differentiated between original designs, redesigns and consultations.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 08:38:32 PM by Tom MacWood »

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2011, 08:24:37 PM »
Joe,
An article written about Sargowana says that expending the funds to build it, 917, would seem unpatriotic due to the circumstances in the country at the time.

Several articles about the course in Utica say that the town never properly funded Travis' plan, they only allocated 5k (which was enough to seed about 25 acres of ground) when at least 35k was needed.

Both Sargowana and Valley View were Travis plans that were never fully executed, but Travis plans nonetheless.

Sargowana gets a pass because it isn't in the protectorate of Utica,  ;) , although for a homeboy Jay's recollections of the area are quite inaccurate:   

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46131.0.html
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ed Oden

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2011, 08:39:53 PM »
Why would you list Pine Valley as an original Travis design?

He doesn't.  It is listed under "Consultation Projects" and not as an "Original/Redesign/Renovation Project". 

Ed Homsey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2011, 09:18:22 PM »
Joe--your finding was terrific, and from my reading of the various citations regarding Sargowana, it seems obvious that it was not a matter of some journalistic fiction.  I'm looking forward to whatever else you might find about it in your Brooklyn Public Library search.

Tom--I must respectfully ask that you read our course listings much more closely than you have so far, as indicated by your two posts.  We did not list Poland Spring or Pine Valley as original Travis courses as you stated.  Our listing has Poland Spring as a "redesign" and Pine Valley as a "Consultation Project".  In addition, please check the Ekwanok listing more closely.  You will note that it indicates Travis "assisted John Duncan Dunn".  In our opinion, it is almost a certainty that Travis followed the lead of John Duncan Dunn, whom he invited to accompany him to Manchester to inspect the property his friend, James Taylor was proposing for the Ekwanok site. We have an early 1900s official Ekwanok CC document that awards Walter Travis an Honorary Membership "for his contributions in the development and construction of Ekwanok CC".  Other early Ekwanok CC documents, including correspondence prior to their 50th anniversary book, credit Travis with being a part of the design of the course and being present during the construction of the course.  It has certainly been a part of the Ekwanok CC lore for years--and I'm talking more than 50 years--that Travis played a major role in the development of their course.  I would like to see the documentation you have for your beliefs.  re Youngstown cC: you sent a citation, or two, about Barker.  I did not see the actual article.  I have done extensive searching of early Youngstown newspapers as well as nearby newspapers, and early NY Times, but have not located any of the references you cited.  So, again, please send me copies of the documentation for your opinions.  Though you haven't acknowledged it, I would like all to know that we listen carefully to "challenges" about our listing, and take positive steps when it is warranted.  We did that in response to questions your raised previously about a couple of courses that we listed as "original" and you insisted were "redesigns" as indicated by the Travis ad of March 1924.  They're now listed as "redesigns".  I thank you for causing us to rethink our opinion about those courses.  

My thanks to the current post by Oden for his observation.  And, I didn't thank Ian Andrew for his kind words a few posts ago.

Ed

www.travissociety.com

 

Michael Moore

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2011, 11:17:16 PM »
What I should do is scan The Hill-Top page that has the hole-by-hole descriptions and post it.  If I can figure out how to do that.  Will give it a try.

Poland Spring is planning a 100th year celebration of Ross's involvement there, next year, and have asked us to consider a joint outing of the Ross Society and Travis Society as part of that celebration.  Would be a great get-together.

Ed -

I have played Poland Springs dozens of times and love the course. Please scan and post the Travis changes. To those of us who care, it would be monumental information. Also let me know if there is anything I can do to assist with the centennial.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Ed Homsey

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2011, 12:09:57 AM »
I have the Poland Spring article in PDF.  Have tried to copy and paste it.  Can someone give me some tips about how to paste, or insert the article into a post?    Thanks.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2011, 05:16:41 AM »
I have the Poland Spring article in PDF.  Have tried to copy and paste it.  Can someone give me some tips about how to paste, or insert the article into a post?    Thanks.

You can convert the PDF into a JPG (multiple JPG's if a multi-page PDF) then post like you do photos.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Ed Homsey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2011, 11:47:19 AM »
Thanks for the tip, Joe.  The 1917 Poland Spring newsletter, detailing the changes to the Ross course by Travis and Fenn, should be up shortly; posted by Mike S.

Ed

www.travissociety.com 

Tom MacWood

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2011, 12:45:15 PM »
Ed
My mistake; I didn't see PV was a consultation. I take it you are referring to Travis's proposal to play the course backward, which I don't believe was ever executed.

If there is no evidence of Travis assisting Dunn at Ekwanok I'm not sure how you can list it as an original design, assisting or not.

I just sent you five articles dealing with the new Youngstown CC. 

Jay Flemma

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Re: Walter J. Travis course listing
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2011, 01:35:19 PM »
Ed wrote:

" The reason for the speculation is that there are marked similarities between the two layouts.  That's as far as one can go."

This is incorrect and way out of line.  The plot of land you showed in maps hold room for eight holes, maybe nine - what exists today as 1,2,8,9,10,11,12,16, and perhaps 18.  An 18 hole layout that Robert Trent Jones laid out was built in 1939-1940, and they believe he may have returned again some time around 1954-55.

How can you possibly say "there are marked similarities between the layouts" when you don't even have a layout of Travis to compae it to because he may or may not have ever done one?  I challenge you to defend that statement with any fact whatsoever.  You have none.  That news article was homer writer trying to break a story that ultimately petered out into nothing.  Forgive my being laconic, but let's be real here.  We can't just say things that broad when they are flat out not true and unsupported.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2011, 02:30:30 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

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