Knoll Holes

[Anthony Gray]

  Modern examples? Why don't we see more?

  Anthony

[Gary Slatter]

Knoll crickets are the problem.

[Garland Bayley]

  Modern examples? Why don't we see more?

  Anthony

The 7th at Old MacDonald is on a huge knoll. The 13th could be said to be on a knoll. Maybe they exist, but just aren't named knoll hole.

[Mac Plumart]

Anthony...

I don't know.  But here is an older thread with some questions about Knoll Holes.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43994.0.html

Perhaps the answer lies within this one.

You able to play yet?

[David Harshbarger]

The 14th at Yale is called The Knoll.

http://thecourseatyale.org/yardage_book.htm#Knoll

I have no idea if this is a template version of The Knoll, but my memory of the strategy was all about using the knoll in the left of the fairway to run the drive down and right leaving a straight forward approach to a smallish rectangular push-up green with steep sides but no hazards per se.

The Knoll immediately followed the Redan, and there's no mistaking 14 and as a par 4 13 at Yale.

Of course,  this wouldn't count as a modern interpretation, except relative to the original.

Dave

[Tom_Doak]

I have a great story about the Knoll hole.

One of the best friends I made in my year in the UK after college was a fellow named Dave Oswald, who was the art editor for GOLF WORLD (UK) at the time.  In 1986, the magazine sent him over to the US to cover the Open at Shinnecock, and I met him on the Sunday and we played National the next morning and then I took him to Piping Rock to show him all the stuff I had been working on for Mr. Dye there.

When we got around to the 13th at Piping Rock [the Knoll hole], he said, "I know exactly where Macdonald got the idea for this hole.  It's the fourth hole at Scotscraig, where I grew up."  I asked him what were the similarities, and he said that on top of the pitch to a small raised green, the green at Scotscraig had two tiers [though not as severe a slope as at Piping Rock] and it had to be what he was thinking of.  I was surprised at that, because Macdonald was always pretty forthcoming in naming the holes he admired from the UK in his writings, but he never mentioned Scotscraig in print that I'm aware.

George and I stopped in Scotscraig to see the hole 3-4 years ago now, when we did our little tour of Scotland.  Absolutely no doubt in my mind that's where Macdonald got the idea.  Now I have to wonder what other ideas he failed to attribute ... the 17th at Lundin Links as the model for the 16th at National is the only one I've found so far.

[Scott Warren]

David H:

When you say the green on Yale's "Knoll" has no hazards, I assume you're not counting the water directly behind it?

[Ulrich Mayring]

To (hopefully) illustrate Tom Doak's point, here are two pictures of the fourth at Scotscraig:

Approach:


Green:


Ulrich

[David Harshbarger]

David H:

When you say the green on Yale's "Knoll" has no hazards, I assume you're not counting the water directly behind it?

Scott,

I was not counting the water, as I didn't remember it.  How much does the water back of the green play into the nature of the hole, or the strategy?

Dave

[Tim Martin]

David H:

When you say the green on Yale's "Knoll" has no hazards, I assume you're not counting the water directly behind it?

Scott,

I was not counting the water, as I didn't remember it.  How much does the water back of the green play into the nature of the hole, or the strategy?

Dave

The red staked area behind the green rarely comes into play and is not considered for strategic purposes. 

[Steve Kline]

So I guess the 6th at PD is a knoll?

[Scott Warren]

Tim,

Of course I defer to a member's greater knowledge of the course.

But while the water may not a factor strategically, I found with a wedge approach downhill off a sidehill lie, it was a challenge to control both distance and direction -- and of course that green will punish any error in either.

One of the most challenging/interesting approach shots on the course and I thought the water long was part of that.

[BCrosby]

The 8th at Mid-Ocean is a wonderful Knoll. The elevated green is set at a slight angle and drops off the back to the lower 9th tee. Even with a wedge in your hand, if you are long or short to a shallow, tiered green you are in trouble. One of those holes that gets harder the more you play it. Fun hole.

Bob

[David Harshbarger]

The 8th at Mid-Ocean is a wonderful Knoll. The elevated green is set at a slight angle and drops off the back to the lower 9th tee. Even with a wedge in your hand, if you are long or short to a shallow, tiered green you are in trouble. One of those holes that gets harder the more you play it. Fun hole.

Bob

Bob,

In contemplating thenYale Knoll I too thought it was a hole that got grew in difficulty the more one played it, in this case in my mind.  You have to give yourself a shot at the green.  And a missed green is a lost opportunity.  The key is playing the Knoll appropriately from the tee, but then the short approach is a must execute.

Don't know the Mid-Ocean version but I can see it is a template more readily understood than mastered.

Does that capture it?

Dave

[Tim Gavrich]

The 14th at Yale rises in my estimation every time I play it.  The most underrated hole on the course, in my opinion.  I wish there were more Knoll holes out there.

[Mark McKeever]

David H:

When you say the green on Yale's "Knoll" has no hazards, I assume you're not counting the water directly behind it?

Scott,

I was not counting the water, as I didn't remember it.  How much does the water back of the green play into the nature of the hole, or the strategy?

Dave

The red staked area behind the green rarely comes into play and is not considered for strategic purposes. 

It does when you hit a career drive and skull a half wedge. 

Mark

[Anthony Gray]

  THe green at the par 5 3rd at Casa de Campo is a good example. How about the third hole at Kiawah?

  Anthony

[Cristian]

I quite like this one:

the 6th at Cork GC

When I first read about the Knoll hole, I immediately thought of Cork GC 6th.

This is a nice photo showing the green as posted by Padraig Dooley in an earlier thread:




Looking at old photo's the hole apparently is not a Mackenzie original, but a very nice Knoll hole; short par 4 with blind drive. Perhaps Padraig can tell us more of the hole. The green is special as the false front upon closer inspection is not false and actually pinnable (as in the picture).

link to the thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42632.0.html

[Greg Holland]

I thought 14 at Yeaman's Hall was a Knoll hole, and a terrific one at that -- tried to discuss it on here one time before but got very little feedback or discussion about whether it was a Raynor original as Ran described it, or a proper knoll hole.

It is part of a great stretch of holes at Yeaman's!

[Padraig Dooley]

I quite like this one:

the 6th at Cork GC

When I first read about the Knoll hole, I immediately thought of Cork GC 6th.

This is a nice photo showing the green as posted by Padraig Dooley in an earlier thread:




Looking at old photo's the hole apparently is not a Mackenzie original, but a very nice Knoll hole; short par 4 with blind drive. Perhaps Padraig can tell us more of the hole. The green is special as the false front upon closer inspection is not false and actually pinnable (as in the picture).

link to the thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42632.0.html

Cristian

The green was flat originally and was changed by a committee in the 50's/60's, basically digging out at each side of the green and using the fill to build up the green, supposedly the 12th green at St. Andrews was the inspiration behind the new green. I'm not sure how.

The green is polarising some people love it, some people hate it. I'm not a great fan with how it looks, doesn't really blend in well, but really like the way it plays, especially for a short hole, plenty of options.

[Sean_A]

I thought 14 at Yeaman's Hall was a Knoll hole, and a terrific one at that -- tried to discuss it on here one time before but got very little feedback or discussion about whether it was a Raynor original as Ran described it, or a proper knoll hole.

It is part of a great stretch of holes at Yeaman's!

Greg

The approach is outstanding, but the drive is rather gutless.


Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

I quite like this one:

the 6th at Cork GC

When I first read about the Knoll hole, I immediately thought of Cork GC 6th.

This is a nice photo showing the green as posted by Padraig Dooley in an earlier thread:




Looking at old photo's the hole apparently is not a Mackenzie original, but a very nice Knoll hole; short par 4 with blind drive. Perhaps Padraig can tell us more of the hole. The green is special as the false front upon closer inspection is not false and actually pinnable (as in the picture).

link to the thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42632.0.html

Cristian

The green was flat originally and was changed by a committee in the 50's/60's, basically digging out at each side of the green and using the fill to build up the green, supposedly the 12th green at St. Andrews was the inspiration behind the new green. I'm not sure how.

The green is polarising some people love it, some people hate it. I'm not a great fan with how it looks, doesn't really blend in well, but really like the way it plays, especially for a short hole, plenty of options.

Padraig,

Any photos of MacKenzie's original?

Thanks,
Ally

[Padraig Dooley]

Padraig,

Any photos of MacKenzie's original?

Thanks,
Ally

Ally, here's one

[Lester George]

We are building a knoll hole at Contentment.  One of the best landforms on the site.

Lester

[George_Bahto]

Anthony:  The Knoll hole in its "normal" (Macdonald - Raynor) form: think of a typical Short hole, a raised green, If you tripled the elevation you would be close to what Macdonald was thinking about.

In addition usually there is a raised rear plateau which made the approach really tough when you had a rear pin.

so why is Knoll hole 14-Yale a knoll hole? 

the super at Yale got a bulldozer in the 50s and he went around the course removing features from greens and altered other features (including the 3rd green). I spent three hours with him one day about 6 years ago driving around the course hoping he would recall all of what he did. (this is an amazing story unto itself)

I made pages of notes (along with a paper he gave me he had drawn up years ago) on the changes he made - it was quite a day

At Yale-14: ..............  13-Piping Rock and the original 4th at Scotscraig (at its original short yardage - usually less than 125-yards), the highly propped up green works fine because you have a very short pitch to the green,. The Yale hole is considerably oinger so you can't have that high a green with that longer-club approach. I think that is why that green is not very high.

I built a moderately-high Knoll hole at Stonebridge - couldn't get it high enuf because I was elevating it top soil (he planning on selling).