[George Pazin]

Is this a common theme among great courses - or merely subtle courses - or all golf courses?

I've lost track of how many times I've read of someone playing a highly cherished course on here, and the poster almost invariably says, "but I should have shot 3 shots better" or "5 shots better" or whatever. The common element being that the very best courses leave you feeling you could have scored a little better, had you done something a little better.

Yet few seem to ever put it all together on these prized tracks. And fewer still accurately diagnose the real problem.

Coincidence? I think not. I'll share more after you share your thoughts.

[Pete Lavallee]

George,

Intersesting green contours certainly play a role here. I'll give two So. Cal examples:

Miss you landing spot bu 10 feet at Torrey Pines and you'll end up 10 feet from where you anticipated ending up.

Miss your landing spot by 10 feet at Rustic Canyon and you can be 30-40 feet away from where you anticpated, due to the contours.

[Ben Voelker]

Is this a common theme among great courses - or merely subtle courses - or all golf courses?

I've lost track of how many times I've read of someone playing a highly cherished course on here, and the poster almost invariably says, "but I should have shot 3 shots better" or "5 shots better" or whatever. The common element being that the very best courses leave you feeling you could have scored a little better, had you done something a little better.

Yet few seem to ever put it all together on these prized tracks. And fewer still accurately diagnose the real problem.

Coincidence? I think not. I'll share more after you share your thoughts.

I sheepishly admit I have said this after every round, anywhere, in which I cared about my score.  I think golf is the type of game that inevitably includes at least a few bad shots per round, no matter the skill level or course, that keeps one saying this time and time again.  For me, the golf course has very little to do with it and my own craving for perfection has everything to do with it.

[Bill Brightly]

It is definitely the sign of a good or great course. I am pretty sure that I have stopped whining about those "lost" shots, and now accept my higher score for what it implies:  well-conceived holes make you pay a price for slight misses or slight errors in your intended target.

I just played Shinnecock, hit the ball as well as I usually do, but came away 7 shots over my average for just these reasons. It almost always means that the green complexes have great interest. Flat, boring greens usually mean straightforward recoveries, and misplayed approaches are quickly forgotten.

However, I always remember the first time I played Pinehurst #2 from the back tees and shot 4 shots BELOW my average! If I pulled a shot, it was hit where I SHOULD have been aiming in the first place.... If I hit a hard fade, it worked its way perfectly into the side slope on the green and rolled out nicely... If I took one club too many, I mishit it slightly and ended up below the hole where I should have been anyway. Just a freak lucky round if there ever was one! The caddy thought I was an amazing golfer and actually scolded me when I three-putted 16! He said: "c'mon man, you're one over now, now you need a birdie on the way in!"

[Tom ORourke]

This reminds me of the open at Merion in 1971. Johnny Miller had a shoulder problem so instead of playing he just walked the course the first practice day. He then pronounced that someone was going to shoot 59. He played a practice round the next day and then said that he was wrong, no one was going to shoot 59. Many courses look easier than they play. Especially when they are not too long, or have subtle trouble, especially around the greens. You see a second shot that looks fairly straightforward, and you think easy par, possible birdie. But missing it in the wrong spot is a quick bogey. Sometimes your recovery shot is harder than the fairway shot you just missed. I like courses where you feel like you are playing okay, hitting a number of cool shots, but maybe your game is off just a tiny bit, and at some point you realize that your scorecard is full of 5s, and you can't quite figure out how that happened. You come in thinking that your 81 should have been 76, but it wasn't.

[Tim Martin]

George-Good question and worthy of some consideration. I think it is a common refrain regardless of the golfers skill level or how high the standing of the golf course. The caveat being that people are more accepting of a higher than average score on great courses. As an example I had a friend call me this week who is a pretty solid 10 capper and got to play Myopia for the first time. He told me he shot 93 and felt he had played pretty well except for an 8 on a par 4. Now I`m sure that the 1st play or couple of plays have a learning curve but he had no issue with his score as he was mesmerized by the course. He isn`t going to call me and share the details of a 93 at the local muni.

[Sean_A]

George

For me the quality of the course doesn't matter.  When I lose a match I go through the process of adding up all the really good putts, extraordinary shots, very makeable shortish putts I missed and made, and foozles which cost me (some don't).  I tot it all up, divide by two and reckon that was the score I COULD HAVE (never, ever, should have) shot.  Usually its lower than my actual score, but sometimes its higher.  Of course, all of this is determine if I could have won the match.  More often than not I figure I could have.  

Ciao  

[Jason Walker]

Bill Brightly summarized it--that feeling is 100% a function of great greens.  It's not just putting.  Approach shots need to be played correctly, recovery shots are not as easy, and greenside chips and pitches are not easy up and downs with imaginative and creative greens. 

My home course has pancake flat fairways, little fairway bunkering and not a ton of elevation, but inevitably I bring my friends in and they all say the same thing.

[Tim Gavrich]

I've played plenty of rounds on decidedly not-"great" golf courses and come away thinking I should have shot a few strokes lower.  I actually tend to play better on better golf courses; I think I tend to focus a little harder.

[jeffwarne]

By this criteria, there must be 25000 + great courses, because I've never met a golfer who didn't tell me after any round he should've shot X shots better.

[Travis Dewire]

As the saying goes, "No round of golf is so good, that it couldn't have been better"

Tom ORourke ? From Nashua, NH, Sven's brother?

[Steve Sayre]

As Lee Trevino once said about this subject, 80% of the guys you tell don't care, and the other 20% wish you did worse.

[Peter Pallotta]

George -  I think you're rght, but I also think there is an element of "I coulda had class. I coulda been a contender. I coulda been somebody, instead of a bum -- which is what I am, let's face it."  We all feel that at one time or another, in golf and in life.  I think maybe the good golf courses, the really enjoyable ones, are the ones that make a golfer feel that 'that night in the Gardens, it coulda been my night - I coulda taken Wilson apart".  Or, to use language from long ago, those course make rabbits feel like they coulda been tigers.

Peter

[Sven Nilsen]

As the saying goes, "No round of golf is so good, that it couldn't have been better"

Tom ORourke ? From Nashua, NH, Sven's brother?

Tom and I are not related.

[Eric Smith]

George,

Your topic is a good one, so thank you for causing me to stop and think to type this. Initially, I thought my response might need its own thread, but in the end you did ask for our thoughts and this is mine.

I wonder -- is there a correlation between not keeping score and playing great golf courses? I ask because George's question has me realizing that other than one round in July when playing a tournament (at DISMAL RIVER! ), I haven't been keeping score for some time. Yet, I have undoubtedly played a fair amount of golf on some really great golf courses over the last couple of years. I'll most always grab a scorecard when I play, but I don't seem to have any with tally marks? My typical round is littered with x's anyway, so it's nice not to have to relive all of those 'lost strokes' . I can't help but feel I am on some sort of golf journey, where I haven't a care about an 18 hole score. I'm usually just as excited over the fourth or fifth shot as I am the first and second; they all mean relatively the same to me, yet this was not always the case in my 30+ years playing the game. What is readily apparent to me is that I am enjoying the architecture more than ever (though even this aspect finishes a distant second to the enjoyment of a game with friends). I want to observe it, interact with it, but more often than not, I still attempt to over power it; hence the x's. I think I'm going to try to change that in the off season. Try to learn how to swing within myself and stop trying to over power the golf course. I may have to get one of those damn elephant-on-a-stick drivers! Who knows, maybe I'll keep score again; which, by no means, is a bad thing.

Am I alone in this journey? Anyone else besides me (and Mr. Webb) not keeping score?

[George Pazin]

Eric, how do you measure yourself against other golfers?

[JMEvensky]

Eric, how do you measure yourself against other golfers?

I'm not going to be the one to type it.

[Eric Smith]

Eric, how do you measure yourself against other golfers?

I'm not going to be the one to type it.

Say, Fred!...

[C. Squier]

I feel terrible for anyone that plays a great course and all they can say abou it is how well/poorly they played.

That being said, it sure was fun listening to the caddy at Cypress tell me which members would enjoy my company during the member guest as I played at an unconscious level through #10. His offers were soon rescinded as we walked off #16!

[Jim Franklin]

Eric, how do you measure yourself against other golfers?

By height?

[Kevin Lynch]

I wonder -- is there a correlation between not keeping score and playing great golf courses?

Am I alone in this journey? Anyone else besides me (and Mr. Webb) not keeping score?

Eric,

You're probably not alone in that that, especially when it comes to playing great golf courses.  For me, it's not so much a function of refusing to keep score, as much as it is not caring as much about score than I used to.

When I'm visiting a great course, I'm more concerned about the "experience" than the quantitative "grade" I get when adding up the strokes.  For example, If I'm 225 out on a Par 5 at Kinloch with water in front, I'm thinking about the chance to tell the story about the Eagle or 2 putt Birdie I made for the next 40 years, regardless of whether an "x" is the more likely outcome.  For me, a Wedge/Wedge/2 Putt Par will last as long in my memory bank as the "x," particularly if it's a course I probably won't play frequently.  The same theory goes for 10% chance recovery shots.  

At the end of the round, I can probably say "I would have shot X if I'd just taken the safe route" but that's just not a real concern to me at this point in my golf life (unless that stroke was the difference between 79 and 80 - then it's the most important thing in the world).

I still play in club tournaments and play with a little more focus on score (which only tempers my approach a little), but I enjoy the liberation of not caring about overall score, which does allow me to focus more on some of the things you mentioned.

[jonathan_becker]

Eric,

I would keep doing what you've been doing because the highs of playing a great course and pulling off a great shot end up being a major part of the overall memories (at least for me they do).  Most of us don't get many opportunities to see these great courses, so I'm all in favor of going for it and forgetting about score.

With your round two sundays ago, what kind of memory would you have now of hole #2 if you hadn't hit the slinger deuce off the tee and had layed up?  Probably not near as good as the real one that you'll never forget!

[George Pazin]

Finally! Shivas must be working...or with Barney.

You're certainly not alone in not keeping score, Eric.

As to the topic, certainly there is a lot of variation within individual golfers - some always think they should've played better, some not. But it strikes me that the best courses often use less obvious means of defending themselves, so one is deceived into thinking he should have scored better, when in reality, he probably got what he deserved.

Excellent use of golf course examples, Pete L. I was specifically thinking about a lot of folks posts about Rustic Canyon (and a couple other courses) when I came up with the thread idea. I remember when RC first opened, it was so common for people to come on here and share their thoughts, and invariably the posters commented on how much better they should have scored. I think people think if they have a wedge or short iron, they should birdie or par, and don't even consider they may be on the completely wrong side of the fairway.

Nice post, Bill B.

[Mac Plumart]

I like Eric's idea.  I played the other day, didn't keep score...had a blast.

Played a few weeks ago with some guys who like to play a match with money involved.  One guys says he is an 8 (I know he's better than that).  He shoots 74, takes everyone's money.  And about 16 days later that 74 still isn't posted on his GHIN scorecard.  Hmmm....

If I have a choice between keeping score and having cheating (which seems to happen in one way or another all the time) or play for fun with no score.  I'll take no score everytime.

[Eric Smith]

With your round two sundays ago, what kind of memory would you have now of hole #2 if you hadn't hit the slinger deuce off the tee and had layed up?  Probably not near as good as the real one that you'll never forget!

Amen to that, Brother Phoenix!

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