[Anthony Gray]

  Bill McBride had a nice post about this on another thread that was not commented on. What tweeks did he make?

  Anthony

[Clyde Johnston]

I read where Robertson changed to course to parallel fairways with the double greens. Prior to that, the outgoing and incoming golfers were playing to the same smaller green area. I am sure there is someone on this site that knows for sure.

[Melvyn Morrow]

A couple of items of information.

The current 17th Green is not by Allan it’s an Old Tom Green. This was changed when Old Tom redesigned the 1st Hole and relocated the 1st Green, this was possible due to land being reclaimed from the sea. The size of the double Greens are again an Old Tom feature greatly enlarging the early smaller Greens by Allan.

Melvyn

[Bill_McBride]

A couple of items of information.

The current 17th Green is not by Allan it’s an Old Tom Green. This was changed when Old Tom redesigned the 1st Hole and relocated the 1st Green, this was possible due to land being reclaimed from the sea. The size of the double Greens are again an Old Tom feature greatly enlarging the early smaller Greens by Allan.

Melvyn

Melvyn, I'm pretty sure I've read in more than one place that Robertson laid out and built the single 17th green.   I just skimmed through Scott's book on the evolution of the course and couldn't find a reference, so assume 17 was an early original.   After 1900 the green was banked away from the road.   When do you suppose Old Tom would have built the green, and what was there before?

[Scott Macpherson]

This question is not easy to answer. It is one of those... 'back in the mists of time' scenarios.

Robertson was born in 1815. He was an exceptional golfer – perhaps the Tiger Woods of his day. He had input into TOC, but exactly what he can be credited for is difficult to gauge. Old Daw Anderson is credited for creating the first 'double green' as late as 1832 by cutting  second hole in the fifth green, but references also credit Robertson as a likely co-conspiritor.

The maps of TOC show a hole cut in the area of what we now know as the 17th green since the first plan in 1821. In those days it was called the Hole of Leslie or Bridge Hole. The green was in danger of being separated from the course when the railway was built around 1852. Since about 1870 the 'road' by the 17th green had developed. In the same year (1870) Old Tom (having been appointed as the custodian of the Links in 1865) built the new 1st green.

You could conclude that if A.R. was born in 1851, and the 1821 shows a hole cut in the area we now associate with the road hole green, then the 'green' predates A.R. And if O.T.M took over in 1865, then he is likely to have made any changes to the green when the issues with the road arose in the 1870's. e.g. the banking.

Hope that helps???

Scott


NB- From 1856 Playfair and the R&A decreed that from then forward their shall be 2 holes in every green.

[Bill_McBride]

That original green by the road served as both 1st and 17th until Old Tom built the new 1st in 1870, right?   So the original green there predated both Robertson and Morris.

I have played the reverse first hole, and it is a bugger!   Very narrow approach with the road left and Road bunker right.   Rocks and shoals.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Bill

My information states that Old Tom built the 1st & 17th Greens when he modified the course which was allowed due to the land for the 1st Fairway being reclaimed from the sea. It may well have been on the site of the old Green but the 17th I am lead to believe was formed by Old Tom in the 1870's.

1821 Map


1875 Map
 

Although The Committee may have made certain comments, Old Tom always did what he thought was right for TOC, evening ignoring the committees suggestions at times.

Melvyn

PS You can see the amount of land reclaimed from the sea by just looking at the two maps

[Bill_McBride]

Bill

My information states that Old Tom built the 1st & 17th Greens when he modified the course which was allowed due to the land for the 1st Fairway being reclaimed from the sea. It may well have been on the site of the old Green but the 17th I am lead to believe was formed by Old Tom in the 1870's.

1821 Map


1875 Map
 

Although The Committee may have made certain comments, Old Tom always did what he thought was right for TOC, evening ignoring the committees suggestions at times.

Melvyn

PS You can see the amount of land reclaimed from the sea by just looking at the two maps

Melvyn, since there was a green in the location of the current 17th since the 1821 map, it would appear that Old Tom did the work referred to as "Banking" the existing green against the expanded road at the same time he built the new first green.   Do you have a copy of Scott's excellent book on the evolution of the Old Course?   Fascinating stuff.   

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