Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...

[Jim Franklin]

...

Hole 11 is another one of my favorites. I'm glad they used the lake as it is as natural as can be and there is plenty of room from tee to green to bail out. Also the area over the greenside bunker really feeds the ball onto the green downwind and rewards the smart player.

...

The pond by the green at 11 is not natural, nor does it look remotely natural.

It looked pretty good to me. What am I missing? That was one of my favorite holes at Trails.

[Jim Nelson]

Having been there last weekend with GW, I was struck by a couple of cosmetic changes which changed a couple of holes (I was last there 3 years ago).

1.  They removed a great deal of underbrush to the left of Bandon Trails #14.  I thought this made the hole much less visually intimidating and opened up the left side.  

2.  They also removed most of the gorse around some of the holes on Bandon Dunes such as 5 and 14.  Again, the holes visually opened up.

Interesting how maintenance changed the holes so much.

[Alex Miller]

I'm afraid Garland is right, that is a manmade pond (source: googleearth) but I still like it.

[Matt MacIver]

I recall just a few years ago that several posters here listed Trails as their least favorite, so I'm glad to see it getting some love. 

I also recall reading recently that Trails has the lowest number of annual rounds, so eye candy still rules the roost, which is understandable when travelling such distances, and the uniqueness of links golf, etc. 

[Doug Wright]

I’ve only played Bandon Trails once—last year--as opposed to many rounds at Pacific and Bandon Dunes and a few at Old MacDonald. With a sample size of one playing, I can only make a couple of observations about Bandon Trails:

--The transitions from one part of the property to another are part of what make the course really good.
--The stretch of holes from 11-13 reminds me of Amen Corner—a beautiful, seamless  piece of golfing property that has a wonderful feel to it. The 11th hole reminds me of #11 at Augusta and is one of my favourites at Bandon.
--I’m not a fan of 14 though I understand its purpose. It seems like #8 at Pine Valley—either hit the green with a wedge or die, but for some reason #14 just didn’t seem right, maybe too much for mortals. BTW I think this is the most discussed hole in the history of GolfClubAtlas.com.    
--It’s generally a really good driving course but I think the first and 18th holes are too tight especially with wind.
--The greens and greensites at Bandon Trails may be some of the least interesting on the Bandon property. Maybe it’s just the nature of the topography but the greens and  greensites for holes like #3, #9 and #10 (for example) just seemed bland. I liked each of those holes just fine, however. And there are some really cool greens and greensites there too, such as #5.  
--One of my playing partners on the trip playing the Bandon courses for the first time probably had a similar reaction to Bandon Trails to that expressed by others, calling the course a “great 13 hole course.” He hated the last five holes.  My friend is neither an idiot or idiotic but  I wouldn’t  go that far at all.  I think #15 is a really fine hole and so is #17. I need to play that stretch of holes again to have a better sense of them.
--There does seem to be some repetitiveness to the look on the tee shots on holes like #4, #6 and #15 and also on the front nine par 5s; probably need to play them again to appreciate them more.
--I didn’t think the walk was bad at all, and I’m on the north side of 55.
--I’d rate Trails ahead of Bandon Dunes and behind PD and OM but look forward to playing it again.
    

[Ted Cahill]

Will- with 14, I am in the group that believes the current green site is "out of alignment" with the rest of the hole (for lack of a better description).  I believe an entirely new green site further back from the present one- and frankly, a green site that did not so severly punnish marginal shots, would be an improvement.  My desire is to see this hole become a decent Par 4 that no longer distracts from the other, better holes on the course.  

My issues with 16 are less about it's merits as an individual hole, but that such a challenging hole comes so late in the round and is preceded by 14 and followed by 18.  I use the "poorly considered" phrase because it should have occured to the designers/owner that such a difficult closing stretch would weigh heavily in golfers minds, rather than the wonderful opening 13.  In Dream Golf, Mike Keiser is consistently advocating for the retail golfer and making sure the "whole experience" is considered in the designs.  BT seems to have gotten caught up in the design of the individual holes at the expense of the whole experience.  I also say poorly considered b/c it was understood that BT would serve as a "respite from the wind or afternoon" course and often be the second 18.  To design such a difficult closing stretch, golf and walking- knowing that this stretch would be holes 32 thru 36 for many- I believe calls for a mulligan.

For all we know, the Resort may have simply chalked it up and accepted that "it is what it is".  It appears that way.  I'm not put off by that- I still make twice a year pilgrimages- and usually play BT disproportionately.   I love 1-13, 15&17 so much that I have to accept the rest.  I simply hope the Resort decides to improve it in the near future.  

[Alex Miller]

--The greens and greensites at Bandon Trails may be some of the least interesting on the Bandon property. Maybe it’s just the nature of the topography but the greens and  greensites for holes like #3, #9 and #10 (for example) just seemed bland. I liked each of those holes just fine, however. And there are some really cool greens and greensites there too, such as #6. 

--There does seem to be some repetitiveness to the look on the tee shots on holes like #4, #5 and #15 and also on the front nine par 5s; probably need to play them again to appreciate them more.
   

Doug, I hope you replay hole 3 because that is actually a very good/interesting green IMO. 9&10 are certainly more boring and flat compared to the others, but I thought 6 was also one of the least interesting/tamest greens on the course. Differing opinions I guess.

Also #5 is a par 3, and while I see what you mean about 4/15, they may be headed in the same direction, but the topography is SO different in the LZ that I would've never thought to group them together. Upon recollection, I find that one of the strengths of BT is the diversity in tee shots IMO. I hope you play it again. I think all 4 courses are at least worth a play each on any visit.

[Doug Wright]

--The greens and greensites at Bandon Trails may be some of the least interesting on the Bandon property. Maybe it’s just the nature of the topography but the greens and  greensites for holes like #3, #9 and #10 (for example) just seemed bland. I liked each of those holes just fine, however. And there are some really cool greens and greensites there too, such as #6. 

--There does seem to be some repetitiveness to the look on the tee shots on holes like #4, #5 and #15 and also on the front nine par 5s; probably need to play them again to appreciate them more.
   

Doug, I hope you replay hole 3 because that is actually a very good/interesting green IMO. 9&10 are certainly more boring and flat compared to the others, but I thought 6 was also one of the least interesting/tamest greens on the course. Differing opinions I guess.

Also #5 is a par 3, and while I see what you mean about 4/15, they may be headed in the same direction, but the topography is SO different in the LZ that I would've never thought to group them together. Upon recollection, I find that one of the strengths of BT is the diversity in tee shots IMO. I hope you play it again. I think all 4 courses are at least worth a play each on any visit.

Alex,

Thanks for the corrections, which I've now made in  my post--I guess one of the flaws of Bandon Trails is lack of memorability as I forgot that the par 4s #4 and #6 are bisected by the par 3 5th.

[Garland Bayley]

I guess I don't get the fuss over the difficult finish 14-18 at Bandon Trails.
When high handicap "retail golfers" like my self mess up 14-18, we know it is our fault. At least there was no pond there to suck up our ball. What's wrong with low handicappers? If they don't score well on a stretch of holes, it is the course, or designers fault?!?! If you don't have the ego to keep score then follow the real traditions and origins of golf and play match play. Then if you get beat on the hole, you opponent played the hole too and did better, and it is only your fault you got beat.

[Bill_McBride]

I'm afraid Garland is right, that is a manmade pond (source: googleearth) but I still like it.

Just curious, Alex, how would Google Earth establish that the pond is man made?

[Garland Bayley]

I'm afraid Garland is right, that is a manmade pond (source: googleearth) but I still like it.

Just curious, Alex, how would Google Earth establish that the pond is man made?

Google Earth has a history feature that lets you step back through time and view past photos of the area.

[Tom_Doak]

If anyone distrusts Google, I can vouch for the fact that the pond on Bandon Trails is manmade.  I saw it being made.

[Michael George]

Re: 14, I understand that they have made numerous changes to the hole over the last several years.  I was just there.  Per our caddie, the room to the left is much greater than in past years (allowing to hit left of the green now) and the collection area to the left of the green is not as severe as it used to be, leaving a fairly playable put onto the green.

I played in a foursome with handicaps of 4, 8, 8 and 12 and each of us had par on the hole.  When I think of 14, i think of a beautiful, fun golf hole - not a bad description.  

[Michael George]

Ran talks about the lake in his write-up on Bandon Trails:

Eleventh hole, 445 yards; .....   Given the rugged nature of the property combined with Coore & Crenshaw’s reluctance to place water hazards close to greens, the golfer is initially surprised to see this placid water feature suddenly incorporated into the design. However, after a few rounds, the golfer comes to relish the approach shot from well back in the fairway to the green below handsomely framed by the tall spruce, fir and cedar trees and the lake. .... Give Keiser credit for this hole too: when Axland and Coore were debating on how or whether to drain the area right of the green, Keiser’s expressed his fondnessfor the playing characteristics of the 16th at Pine Valley Golf Club. From that moment on, the notion of the pond and a large rolling green became a reality.

So those with a problem with the pond, blame Mike Keiser - something I will never do because: (1) I love the pond, and (2) he provided to the golfing world an amazing place and helped provide a platform where great architects like Kidd and Doak would have more opportunities to build great courses and I would have more opportunities to play great golf.

[Andy Troeger]

That quote from the write-up confirms what I would have guessed--that it was a low, wet spot anyway that was formalized into a pond. It certainly looks like a reasonable place for a pond to have formed anyway, regardless of whether it was man-made. Given the vast area to bail left, I really like it.

I don't see the fuss over Trails being that difficult period. It's a reasonable challenge, but its probably still one of the easier top 100 courses out there. If my spreadsheet is right that the tip's slope is 133, that's tied for the second LOWEST number of any course in my top fifty (Valley Club is 131). The rating is lower than all but a handful as well.

[Matt MacIver]

Re: #14, the scorecard says it's a 305 yard par 4 from the second-furtherest tee box (325 tips) and ranks it as the 14 handicap hole.  

To those with multiple plays, is it in the lowest quartile of difficulty?  

I loved the hole just like it was and am disappointed to hear about the widening to the left.  

It's a hole where you could make a 1 or a 7.  Has anyone aced it?

[Bill_McBride]

I'm afraid Garland is right, that is a manmade pond (source: googleearth) but I still like it.

Just curious, Alex, how would Google Earth establish that the pond is man made?

Google Earth has a history feature that lets you step back through time and view past photos of the area.

I need to get into Google Earth, usually just look at Google Maps for aerials. 

[Jud_T]

Re: #14, the scorecard says it's a 305 yard par 4 from the second-furtherest tee box (325 tips) and ranks it as the 14 handicap hole.  

To those with multiple plays, is it in the lowest quartile of difficulty?  

I loved the hole just like it was and am disappointed to hear about the widening to the left.  

It's a hole where you could make a 1 or a 7.  Has anyone aced it?

Matt,

14 is the poster child for what's wrong with the USGA handicapping system, although less so after the changes.

[Alex Miller]

I'm afraid Garland is right, that is a manmade pond (source: googleearth) but I still like it.

Just curious, Alex, how would Google Earth establish that the pond is man made?

Google Earth has a history feature that lets you step back through time and view past photos of the area.

I need to get into Google Earth, usually just look at Google Maps for aerials. 

I prefer it because you can use the ruler to measure in yards as well! 

[Tim Bert]

Matt,

14 is the poster child for what's wrong with the USGA handicapping system, although less so after the changes.

Jud can you elaborate on this? My understanding is that the handicap is used to identify which holes will likely have the biggest scoring differential between golfers of different skill levels.  I have an old Trails score card which identifies this as #8 and a new one that identifies it as #14.  I think 14 is closer than 8. 

I'd much rather get my strokes on other holes at this course.  My limited experience at BT head's up against a 4 handicap bears this out.  I've beaten him straight up on the hole three out of four plays and I'm not sure there's another hole I could point to at the resort where that's likely or possible.

[Jud_T]

Maybe an ignorant comment on my part Tim.  I'm basing it on the thought that the difficulty of the hole is the green which is lower down on the list of hdcp determinants, as opposed to distance and hazards, but I may be overstating this...

[Tim Bert]

Maybe an ignorant comment on my part Tim.  I'm basing it on the thought that the difficulty of the hole is the green which is lower down on the list of hdcp determinants, as opposed to distance and hazards, but I may be overstating this...

I'm pretty ignorant on this topic, so wasn't trying to dispute as much as learn more.  I have a very layman's understanding of how handicaps are assigned.  I didn't realize there was an order or priority to handicap determinants.  Would love to hear more from someone that has been involved in handicapping a course.

[Mark Johnson]

Re: #14, the scorecard says it's a 305 yard par 4 from the second-furtherest tee box (325 tips) and ranks it as the 14 handicap hole.  

To those with multiple plays, is it in the lowest quartile of difficulty?  

I loved the hole just like it was and am disappointed to hear about the widening to the left.  

It's a hole where you could make a 1 or a 7.  Has anyone aced it?

For a single digit hcp, probably one of the 4 or 5 easiest.   For a high handicapper, 4 or 5 hardest in relation to par, especially if your short game isnt top notch.

Not that hard for the typical 70yr old, 180 and straigh every shot with decent short game;  VERY hard for average distance and wild with no short game.

[Garland Bayley]

Re: #14, the scorecard says it's a 305 yard par 4 from the second-furtherest tee box (325 tips) and ranks it as the 14 handicap hole.  

To those with multiple plays, is it in the lowest quartile of difficulty?  

I loved the hole just like it was and am disappointed to hear about the widening to the left.  

It's a hole where you could make a 1 or a 7.  Has anyone aced it?

For a single digit hcp, probably one of the 4 or 5 easiest.   For a high handicapper, 4 or 5 hardest in relation to par, especially if your short game isnt top notch.

Not that hard for the typical 70yr old, 180 and straigh every shot with decent short game;  VERY hard for average distance and wild with no short game.

I don't think you can stereotype players this way. Many high handicappers that hit it down the hill to the right are going to look at the shot to the green and decide they don't have that shot, play to the front left of the green, chip up and get a bogey. Many low handicappers are going to look at the shot, take dead aim and try to pull it off, get themselves in worse trouble (bunker or over), and perhaps take double bogey. Unfortunately, I suspect these will be players that call the hole (barf) "unfair".

Unfair simply means I don't have that shot. High handicappers don't have so many shots that they know it would be pathetic for them to start labeling things unfair that they can't manage. High handicappers leave being pathetic to the low handicappers.

[William_G]

So those with a problem with the pond, blame Mike Keiser - something I will never do because: (1) I love the pond, and (2) he provided to the golfing world an amazing place and helped provide a platform where great architects like Kidd and Doak would have more opportunities to build great courses and I would have more opportunities to play great golf.

Ron Whitten threw Trails under the bus for the pond when the course first was open for play.

The lake has matured into the most natural/organic, best "fake lakes" I've ever seen. I love hole #11 and the setting is very tranquil with a massive green encouraging approaches from the left.

This hole is one of the reasons I love Trails.