Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...

[Dean Stokes]

Ben, i dont disagree about #13....i had to do some thinking on the tee and chose 3 wood as driver brought left bunker and right trees into play. That left me a full 7 iron in the breeze with no miss right and not a good one left off a downhill lie. With #14 i felt less strategy on the tee....either driver,3 wood or 3 iron to leave a short iron up the hill. Obviously the further left on the fairway you are creates an easier shot up the green. Maybe had my 2nd shot not been decent and i had made double i too would see the hole differently!

[John Kirk]

The last time I played Trails (two weeks ago, thank you very much), the pin was front on #14.  I surveyed the ground around the green, and determined that #14 may best be attacked by playing the second shot 5-10 yards short and slightly left of the green, from which you could chip up and make a 4 or 5.  I think it may be the most difficult short 4 I've played, with #17 at Crystal Downs in the mix.

[Ben Voelker]

The last time I played Trails (two weeks ago, thank you very much), the pin was front on #14.  I surveyed the ground around the green, and determined that #14 may best be attacked by playing the second shot 5-10 yards short and slightly left of the green, from which you could chip up and make a 4 or 5.  I think it may be the most difficult short 4 I've played, with #17 at Crystal Downs in the mix.

John,

I think you are exactly right.  Given another chance at the front pin after hitting my second in the bunker at 14, I would probably play my bunker shot toward the back of the green and hope for 2 putts from there.

[JLahrman]

I know this has been raised before, but how much of the "it's a hard walk" argument is caused by so many people playing it as their second course for the day? 

I didn't think it was particularly hard but have grown up on some courses with decent hills. 

Agreed...if this were a Saturday morning round it would not be viewed as a tough walk.

But given that you're playing your second round of the day, or fourth in the last two days, etc., it does become a bit of an issue.  It's certainly the toughest walk of the four courses, although the consecutive climbs up #14 and #15 at OM may also cause some grumbling.

[William_G]

hahaha, I've played Trails twice in one day w/o a caddie, and carrying...no wind in the AM and an afternoon breeze in the PM..score went up at least 9 shots in the PM... definitely a tough finish in the PM...16 green is diabolical, LOL

[Andy Troeger]

I didn't really find Trails to be that hard of a walk either. It might be the toughest walk at the resort, but that's not saying much. I played it as my fifth round in four days walking/carrying and wasn't especially tired to finish. The only time I got especially tired on the trip was the end of the 36 hole day where I mentally lost it the last few holes at Pacific (not a good time to do that).

Walking up #16 at Trails after 18 in the morning would be tough, no doubt.

[Mike Benham]

What is the course rating, slope at BT? 

What is the course record ?     (it might be the highest of any of the courses)

[Mike_Trenham]

For me walking the hills at Trails is less of an issue than the soft sandy areas at the other three, plus OM and PD are maintained so hard and fast it is almost like walking on a parking lot for 4 hours on those courses.

Wow I am really really surprised by the unfavorable thoughts on #16 it is maybe my favorite par 5s at the resort.  But I tend to have a thing for uphill holes, so yes I also like #7 a ton. 

Plus my two trips around Trails have been in March with the typical winter wind helping and I made par both times without any trouble except two putting was not easy.  Ironically I have been reluctant to criticize #14 always playing it into the wind and having hit horrible drives.  Is there a thread around here analyzing how differently certain holes play in the opposite wind?

The routing at Trails is probably my favorite at the resort as it seems like a work of art, as opposed to PD which seems like a jigsaw puzzle.  PD looks like it took a lot of effort to maximize the land near the Ocean but not exhaust it during one stretch of holes.  Both routings are interesting studies yet completely different. 

[Mark Johnson]

some of my thoughts -- keep in mind I am pare of the very small minority which likes trails more than any other Bandon Course.


- IMHO, Trails is at least 2.5 shots harder than any other course (all wind being equal);  this instantly creates the most dislike

- No breather holes on trails

- More unreachable holes in regulation for shorter hitters (4, 11, 12)

- More precision needed off the tee here compared to other bandon courses.   Many holes where you can be on the wrong side of the fairway and have little to no shot

- more different types of shots are required;   on other course you can get away with no ground game;  not on trails

- No picturesque ocean holes;   when you are taking pictures, you pay more attention to how hard it is

while these are all reasons some will not like trails, they are the reasons i like it best.   Besides being a great test of golf, i think it may have the best set of par 3 of any course i've played (for me, its either BT or Butler)

[Tim Bert]

Mark - I don't think the very small minority that you reference is as small as you think.  Definitely not she you consider those on this site.  There have been quite a few strong favorable opinions brought out in this thread and others.  Many people in the treehouse lining up to say this is their favorite. 

Trails is my least favorite course to play at the resort.  I won't call it the "worst" as I think has some fabulous holes and I agree it is very artistic and I agree with a fair amount of the praise heaped at it here.  I think all four courses at the resort are wonderful.  It is simply the one I enjoy the least. 

I think it is a must play (as are the other three) for a first timer.  For my return trips, if I were only going back to the resort for two days, it would be a definite don't play.  For three days, it becomes a probably.  For four days or more, it is a once per trip but not more than that.

Much is made of the changing environments and I don't have a problem with that.  I think the idea is pretty cool.  My biggest issue is that I find the stretch of 7-12 to be uninspiring.  That happens to align closely with the wooded stretch of the course, but I don't think it is the wooded environment that I don't enjoy.  I just think it is the stretch of holes.  For my personal taste, it is the longest stretch of holes at the entire resort that just doesn't get me pumped up to play more golf.  Not "bad" mind you, but not the same caliber as most of the rest of what the resort has to offer. 

I also agree with many of the criticisms of the 16th and the 18th.  I don't love those holes, but I could get past them and would probably play the course more if I found more interest in 7-12. 

At the end of the day, I absolutely love 1-6, I really enjoy 13-15, and think 17 is a really cool par 3.  The problem is with 8 holes that fall slightly flat for me and 6 of them happening consecutively, I'd rather spend my time and money at the other courses.

I think it is a testament to the greatness of the resort that so many of us have very different opinions about each of the individual courses yet most of us agree that Bandon is unquestionably a world class golf destination and worth multiple return trips.

[Mark Johnson]

Can you explain explicity what you don't like about 7-12?

I'd admit that 8 and 9 are probably the two weakest holes on the course.  However, 11 and 12 are probably my 2 favorites

But 7 has a phenomenal green complex and makes great use of a back bunker (which you very rarely see nowdays)

10 and 11 are both holes which force you make a decision on your tee shot and really demand precision for a hole with such a wide fairway.  (Actually 11 might be by favorite hole at the entire complex)

12 is a great long par 3 where you can actually make some birdies if you play the proper contours

[William_G]

Mark - I don't think the very small minority that you reference is as small as you think.  Definitely not she you consider those on this site.  There have been quite a few strong favorable opinions brought out in this thread and others.  Many people in the treehouse lining up to say this is their favorite. 

Trails is my least favorite course to play at the resort.  I won't call it the "worst" as I think has some fabulous holes and I agree it is very artistic and I agree with a fair amount of the praise heaped at it here.  I think all four courses at the resort are wonderful.  It is simply the one I enjoy the least. 

I think it is a must play (as are the other three) for a first timer.  For my return trips, if I were only going back to the resort for two days, it would be a definite don't play.  For three days, it becomes a probably.  For four days or more, it is a once per trip but not more than that.

Much is made of the changing environments and I don't have a problem with that.  I think the idea is pretty cool.  My biggest issue is that I find the stretch of 7-12 to be uninspiring.  That happens to align closely with the wooded stretch of the course, but I don't think it is the wooded environment that I don't enjoy.  I just think it is the stretch of holes.  For my personal taste, it is the longest stretch of holes at the entire resort that just doesn't get me pumped up to play more golf.  Not "bad" mind you, but not the same caliber as most of the rest of what the resort has to offer. 

I also agree with many of the criticisms of the 16th and the 18th.  I don't love those holes, but I could get past them and would probably play the course more if I found more interest in 7-12. 

At the end of the day, I absolutely love 1-6, I really enjoy 13-15, and think 17 is a really cool par 3.  The problem is with 8 holes that fall slightly flat for me and 6 of them happening consecutively, I'd rather spend my time and money at the other courses.

I think it is a testament to the greatness of the resort that so many of us have very different opinions about each of the individual courses yet most of us agree that Bandon is unquestionably a world class golf destination and worth multiple return trips.

Same thing Matt Ward said

[Will Lozier]

I would be interested to get feedback on a "correction" for BT that, I believe would make 14&16 better holes and ideally, leave the player with some gas in his tank to enjoy 17 and tackle 18.

14:  Push the green back 80-100 yds into the low hollow east of the current green.  Players would be able to see the green from the tee- and if they hit a good drive would have a look at the green on the approach.  But if a poor drive is hit, the current green location would create a blind shot into the new green.  The new green location would be level with 15 tee box and be an easy walk.  The beauty of the tee box at 14 would be preserved and 14 would become a decent risk, reward par 4.

16:  Fill in the fairway bunkers (not the one for pulled tee shots- thats a great bunker).  The second shot at this hole is already difficult enough (into the wind, hanging lie)  Too often those conditions create a pushed long iron into those nasty bunkers on the right and the hole becomes a chore.  I think a "bathtub" fairway all the way to the green would be more interesting and linksy.  The fact is, 16 is a connecor hole getting you home and should not present such a difficult, spirt depleting challenge.  17 is a wonderful hole and I sincerely believe it is enjoyed less because it follows a beating on 16. 

You can usually count on me posting alot on BT topics.  I believe it is one of the few, if not only, true Heathland type courses in the USA and a very important course. 

I just believe that parts of it were, in hindsight, poorly considered.  Any of us, when honest with ourselves, make bad decisions in areas where we are experts- even though, at the time, we believe these decisions are sound.  It's not malpractice- just mis judgement.  I think that is the story of a couple holes at Bandon Trails.  Bandon Dunes resort is an incredible resort- the result of amazing foresight and unconventional wisdom.  That streak of good decisions came to an end at 14 and 16- I hope the powers that be eventually just accept that and improve it. 

Ted,

How on earth would your proposed change to #14 be an improvement with a probable blind second shot with a longer club?!

And please expound on how a "bathtub" fairway would make #16 more "linksy"?  Frankly, this wonderful par-5 - maybe the best on the property - beautifully utilizes an incredibly interesting piece of land and asks for a free swing off the tee and a thoughtful and well-executed second (yes, sometimes a low draw off a hanging lie where the left side of the fairway will indeed help such a shot find it's way back to the center thus avoiding those perfectly placed right side bunkers).  The third shot must be a controlled short iron or even a fun littlepitch which can usually use the slope of the green advantageously.  I just don't get the idea that challenge equates to "poorly considered"?!

Cheers

[Tim Bert]

I can try, but a lot of it has to do with the fact that it is just the longest sustained stretch that doesn't really have any thrilling or standout holes or shots for me.

#7 feels like a really long, land eater transition par 4 to get up the hill.  I get that you like uphill holes and really enjoy it.  I don't have a particular problem with uphill holes. This one just doesn't have much allure for me.  Very wide, very long, very uphill.  Its fine, but it just isn't all that memorable for me.

#8 is always a disappointment for me.  The iron or hybrid off the tee feels like a ho hum play to me but I don't really gain enough advantage or face enough risk for the driver to feel as exhilarating as I might prefer on a short par 4.  It doesn't match up to some of the short par 4s I love at the resort, like #6 at Pacific, #14 at Trails.

#9 just seems like another long connecting par 5, although they did incorporate that nice pine tree into the back of the bunker.  This hole is one of the most visually bland on the course to me.  I actually enjoyed it more the last time I visited than the previous times around, and it is probably closer to the top of my list in this stretch.

#10 I'm probably guilty of I have no idea what this hole is even about because I'm pretty sure I always just bamboozle myself off the tee.  I always have to go back and look at pictures to remember what's going on here.  It looks nice and it photographs well, but at the end of the day it doesn't have a memorability factor for me.  I have probably given this one less of a chance than the others in this stretch but it is right in the middle of the stretch I love to ignore, so it gets lumped in with the others.

#11 I think I would like this one more in the winter when I could challenge the hill, so guilty as charged on your comments about short hitters.  In the summer wind, I really have no prayer of riding down to the lower tier.  So, the tee shot is rather pedestrian.  Just hit it out there and then face your super long approach to a ginormous green.  I am actually quite fond of the green setting and how it nestles right up to the pond.  It's peaceful back here, I will grant you that.

#12 I really like the giant knob on the right side of the green.  But it really only complicates things when you miss way right.  And I'm not going to step up to the tee and miss way right on purpose every time so I can enjoy the big hump.  Otherwise for me it is just play the driver right up to the green and hope for the best roll.

I may be one of the guys you thrust into the "don't like it because I'm a shorter hitter and the course is hard" category but I don't know how you define that bucket.  I hit the ball far enough to get around the resort - probably 230 to 240 on most of my trips out there (with the occasional 210 or 290 thrown in depending upon the wind!)  So, I'm not super short but certainly closer to short than long by today's standards.  It isn't the sheer difficulty of the course that turns me off, though I do agree it is harder than the other three.  I'm not even sure that I agree with your comment about there being more unreachable holes at Trails than the other courses.  I've never thought of 4 or 12 as unreachable and 11 is only unreachable in a really strong wind.  Not to mention that I'm not really one to get hung up on not being able to reach a green in regulation (I love #15 at Kingsley and I have never reached the green in regulation in my 25+ rounds).  I think there are holes that in certain winds are unreachable for me at all the courses.  Trails just doesn't give me the juice the others courses offer.

[Tim Bert]

Same thing Matt Ward said

Just for the record, I am not Matt Ward! 

I have read some of his comments on Bandon Trails before and we do agree on many points despite the fact that we couldn't disagree more re: Pacific Dunes vs. Pebble Beach!

[Peter Galea]

A very wise student of gca, current USGA Rules expert, also had BT as his #1, if I recall correctly, so you are in good company.




A man of impeccable taste indeed.
P.

[Alex Miller]

Hole 7 is one of my favorite holes at BT, and I find it one of the more appealing uphill par 4s I've played anywhere. The width also makes is a great transition to the wooded corridor holes to come.

Hole 8 is a fun driveable hole, and I reached it at the KP with the southern wind no problem. Very good and deceptive green too.

Hole 9 is good in the summer, and paired with hole 8 it means that if I do everything right, I can have a putt for eagle on one of these two holes depending on the season.

Hole 10 is probably the most straightforward hole on the course, and also my least favorite. It is rather forgettable compared to the rest of the course.

Hole 11 is another one of my favorites. I'm glad they used the lake as it is as natural as can be and there is plenty of room from tee to green to bail out. Also the area over the greenside bunker really feeds the ball onto the green downwind and rewards the smart player.

Hole 12 is an excellent fairway wood par 3. You can sling one in with the mounds to the right, or go straight at the hole and contend with dead left. That meadow is indeed a special place and this hole feels very natural, though I don't know how much of the greenside mounding was originally there.

Hole 13 is tough. It's exacting, but thrilling and playing to the perched green is another appealing shot.


I think holes 7-13 at Trails do the best job on the property of exceeding expectations given the land they had to work with. To me, they measure up just as well as the rest of the course on the exposed side of the hill.

[Rob Rigg]

More than any other course at the Resort, I view Trails as a hole by hole battle that demands focus on almost every shot, unlike some of the other courses where you can check out and recover just fine. Strong driving is paramount for success on Trails where on the other courses you can either get a bit loose or potentially play 3 wood.

For example, on Trails 4 you are either in position A or in position O Crap I went too far left and went in the bunker or too far right and didn't get over the hogsback. The scoring variance between A and anywhere else is probably around 1.5 strokes. Also, to take advantage of the "easier" holes like 8 and 9, positioning off the tee is very important.

I think 3 to 7, 12 & 13, 15 and 17 - so 9 holes on the course - are really good to fantastic.
14, 16 & 18 are a bit meh for me and it is too bad they come at the end of the round. I think memories of the brilliant 15th and 17th might be forgotten because of the angst on 14, 16, 18. Off course 17 isn't easy by any means. A tough, and potentially frustrating, finish especially during the summer.
1 & 2 are kind of meh as a prelude to where the action really starts.
8 to 10 are an opportunity - maybe not super exciting but a real chance to score.

Pacific and Bandon both have excellent holes and meh holes, but the inferior holes tend to get more of a hall pass and I am not sure that the top 9 holes on either course can compare to those at Trails? The finish at Bandon may be stronger because of 16 and 17 but I don't think the run from 14 to 18 at Pac has less of a meh factor than the same run at Trails.

I love OM from start to finish and it is the most different to Trails in terms of shotmaking requirements, especially off the tee. It is amazing to have the opportunity to play two courses at the same Resort that are so different yet so compelling.

[Jud_T]

- IMHO, Trails is at least 2.5 shots harder than any other course (all wind being equal);  this instantly creates the most dislike

Am I nuts or is Bandon Dunes not the harder course?  (BD has a higher rating/slope)

  on other course you can get away with no ground game;  not on trails

Have you played Old Mac? or Pac Dunes for that matter?

[Steve Kline]

7 - I can see not liking this hole. I haven't really gotten it yet as I always seem to be out of position.

8 - Really like this hole. I can drive it but I have to hit it really well. A mishit to the left is no good. The green is fantastic with so many different pin placements.

9 - Really like this hole too and agree with Alex that if I play it right I have back to back holes where eagle is a possibility. To do so I have to challenge the left side bunker off the tee, which is right at my carry distance. Too far right off the tee and I can't get there. If you are going for the green it is easy to hit too far right and end up in the bunker because the tree left steers you there. Great lay of the land green which strongly encourages the ground game. In the Mid-Am I bet I was one of a very few players who was using a 7 iron from 60 yards short of the green.

10 - Decent hole but doesn't really stand out.

11 - Love this hole. The wind is all important on the tee but the green is big enough to handle long shots in. If downwind, the lackadaisical player can find the lake off the tee.

12 - Very good fairway wood par 3. While you can miss way right that looks like a tough up and down for me. My memory is that there is a left to right slope on the left hand side that can feed the ball on to the green.

13 - Do I driver for a shorter shot in but bring lots of trouble off the tee into play or do I hit 3-wood of the tee and leave a longer shot in to a green with no good misses?

I really like this stretch of holes. My guess is depending on how you feel about this stretch determines how highly you rank BT.

[Bill_McBride]

More than any other course at the Resort, I view Trails as a hole by hole battle that demands focus on almost every shot, unlike some of the other courses where you can check out and recover just fine. Strong driving is paramount for success on Trails where on the other courses you can either get a bit loose or potentially play 3 wood.

For example, on Trails 4 you are either in position A or in position O Crap I went too far left and went in the bunker or too far right and didn't get over the hogsback. The scoring variance between A and anywhere else is probably around 1.5 strokes. Also, to take advantage of the "easier" holes like 8 and 9, positioning off the tee is very important.

I think 3 to 7, 12 & 13, 15 and 17 - so 9 holes on the course - are really good to fantastic.
14, 16 & 18 are a bit meh for me and it is too bad they come at the end of the round. I think memories of the brilliant 15th and 17th might be forgotten because of the angst on 14, 16, 18. Off course 17 isn't easy by any means. A tough, and potentially frustrating, finish especially during the summer.
1 & 2 are kind of meh as a prelude to where the action really starts.
8 to 10 are an opportunity - maybe not super exciting but a real chance to score.

Pacific and Bandon both have excellent holes and meh holes, but the inferior holes tend to get more of a hall pass and I am not sure that the top 9 holes on either course can compare to those at Trails? The finish at Bandon may be stronger because of 16 and 17 but I don't think the run from 14 to 18 at Pac has less of a meh factor than the same run at Trails.

I love OM from start to finish and it is the most different to Trails in terms of shotmaking requirements, especially off the tee. It is amazing to have the opportunity to play two courses at the same Resort that are so different yet so compelling.

Interesting, I thought 1and 2 were excellent getting started holes.   I liked the uphill approach on 1 followed by the downhill shot on 2.   3 might be the best par 3 on the property, maybe tied with Pac Dunes 3. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Same thing Matt Ward said

Just for the record, I am not Matt Ward! 

I have read some of his comments on Bandon Trails before and we do agree on many points despite the fact that we couldn't disagree more re: Pacific Dunes vs. Pebble Beach!

Of course you aren't, you actually post pictures.  In addition, i have yet to hear you say "I'll explain later."

Matt and I covered this territory a while back:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46623.0.html

[Garland Bayley]

...

Hole 11 is another one of my favorites. I'm glad they used the lake as it is as natural as can be and there is plenty of room from tee to green to bail out. Also the area over the greenside bunker really feeds the ball onto the green downwind and rewards the smart player.

...

The pond by the green at 11 is not natural, nor does it look remotely natural.

[Bill_McBride]

...

Hole 11 is another one of my favorites. I'm glad they used the lake as it is as natural as can be and there is plenty of room from tee to green to bail out. Also the area over the greenside bunker really feeds the ball onto the green downwind and rewards the smart player.

...

The pond by the green at 11 is not natural, nor does it look remotely natural.

Do you think the other ponds on property are not natural?    The ones by the cottages and entrance with all the lily pads.... 

[Garland Bayley]

...

Hole 11 is another one of my favorites. I'm glad they used the lake as it is as natural as can be and there is plenty of room from tee to green to bail out. Also the area over the greenside bunker really feeds the ball onto the green downwind and rewards the smart player.

...

The pond by the green at 11 is not natural, nor does it look remotely natural.

Do you think the other ponds on property are not natural?    The ones by the cottages and entrance with all the lily pads.... 

The other ponds are natural.

When you have all the bumps and hollows in the ground that you have at the resort, you do not get a pond with a straight shoreline like the one on #11.