Bandon Trails - bulldoze and start over...

[Jim Franklin]

So a friend of mine just returned from his Golfweek rater retreat at Bandon and I asked him what he thought of the 4 courses. He loved Pac Dunes, really liked Bandon Dunes and Old MacDonald, but hated Trails. He said they should bulldoze and start over. He also loved the Preserve which I found interesting. This is the first person I spoke to that hated Trails that much. I have it as my 4th at Bandon, but it is in my Top 50 I have ever played.

Anyone else think Trails should be bulldozed? He said there were too many quirly bounces. I think he is nuts.

[Bill_McBride]

Definitely nuts. 

[Tim Pitner]

I wonder how much the difficult finish (tough scoring holes like 14, 16 and 18 plus an uphill walk on what is often the second 18 of the day) colors people's perceptions of Bandon Trails in a negative way.  My guess is that it does quite a bit. 

I enjoy the course, including 14, but will admit that playing 16 against the wind and trudging up 18 as the 36th hole of the day aren't a lot of fun. 

[Ronald Montesano]

You're in Bandon...you're on a golf course...I had Trails as my #1 when I played there...Old Mac was but a notion and I couldn't get on Sheep Ranch. For my taste, playing through Dunes, Meadow and Forest trumped the constancy of one environment.

[Michael Dugger]

It's a really hilly course. 

Down and up on 1
way down on 2
up and over on 4
down a ravine and up on 5
up and over on 6
way up to the green on 7
up and over on 11
up to green on 13
WAY up to 14 tee
way down and then right back up to 14 green
up to 16
up and over and up to home green

I like hilly, don't get me wrong, but it is an exhausting walk.

[Matt MacIver]

The obvious question to the critic is, "so what would you do different?". 

Based on my limited play of the first three courses I had BT as my favorite design but PD as my favorite course and walk - if that makes any sense.  And I say that agreeing completely with the comments on #18...but overall it was a pretty straight-forward par 6. 

[Michael George]

That does not speak highly of Golfweek raters.  I usually agree with their ratings and enjoy the distinction between Classic and Modern, but that is one crazy thought from someone that purports to know something about golf courses.You want the courses to be different.  Trails is the most diverse course on the property.  Looking at it hole by hole:

1-3 are all great golf holes. 4 and 6 are a little similar, having to cross a hog's back on the drive.  Both are good holes, but have a feeling that you are playing the same hole.  So I could see some changes to #6 for this reason, but that is about it on the front. 5 is a great short par 3.  7 is a solid par 4 and different than every other hole on the course.  8 is a classic short par 4 and 9 is par 5 that changes environments from tee to green (start in a meadow and finish in the forest) - plus it is a nice breather before the back nine.

10 is a solid par 4.  11-15 might be the best stretch of consecutive 5 holes on the property.  Those that criticize #14 just don't like bold architecture (ie. would certainly blast Pinehurst greens if built today).  #16 was not my favorite, but uphill holes are usually tough.  #17 is as good as a par 3 on the property. #18 could use a bulldozer to cut down the large ridge acros the fairway.  More gradual undulations between the 2 dunes of that hole would make for a great finish.  So, in sum, they can take a bulldozer to the ridge on #18 and make some changes to #6.  Otherwise, don't touch it.  Also, Brad  if you need another rater after getting that review, let me know.  I am available. 

[Garland Bayley]

... He said they should bulldoze and start over. ...

That's a pretty useless statement without any explanation attached. Often times the explanation will expose the weakness of the reviewer as opposed to the weakness of the course.

[Jud_T]

Several people I know, myself included, liked the course much more on our second trip.  Many of the strong players I know have it as their favorite at the resort.  To me it's clearly better than Bandon Dunes, and is neck and neck with Old Mac for #2 at the resort.

[Don_Mahaffey]

I've got a 9am tee time this friday. Don't start the dozers until I'm done!

[Will MacEwen]

I've got a 9am tee time this friday. Don't start the dozers until I'm done!

I'm off at 7:30 and have requested that the dozers be in the second group, destroying the course in our wake. 

[Jim Franklin]

... He said they should bulldoze and start over. ...

That's a pretty useless statement without any explanation attached. Often times the explanation will expose the weakness of the reviewer as opposed to the weakness of the course.

Thanks Garland. I guess if you read the entire post you would have seen he said there were too many quirky bounces. I will find out what holes he is referring too, but he said he hit a drive straight down the middle only to find it in a bunker twice and then his playing partner hit it way left only to find his ball in the middle of the fairway. I told him rub of the green and course knowledge make for interesting rounds of golf.

[Michael George]

Jim:

If he is referring to the 2nd bunker on #6, I could see his argument as it is blind from the tee.  Same on 18 as there are crazy bounces there. 

However, going hole by hole, I don't see any other holes that would apply.

Make some changes to those 2 holes - fine.  Otherwise, don't see it.

[Jim Franklin]

18 is his big complaint. He also didn't like #14. He says it rewards bad playing.

[Kalen Braley]

I guess the reverse of the old axiom is true:

"One mans treasure is another mans trash"

[Alex Miller]

18 is his big complaint. He also didn't like #14. He says it rewards bad playing.

18 is a little odd and I suppose they could've flattened the dune in the fairway, but I'm afraid I don't get the comment about 14. I've heard 14 described as too hard and too small of a putting surface, but that it rewards bad playing? His thought process regarding good golf courses does not make sense to me, and that's probably why I disagree with his opinion of Trails. Pacific Dunes and Trails are my two favorite courses at the resort, and maybe not in that order.

[Bruce Wellmon]

I messed #18 up if I remember. But overall, BT was my #1 at Bandon. Haven't played OM yet.

[Jim Franklin]

I just got off the phone with my buddy and he was telling me how bad #3 at Old Mac was too. He says that was the worst designed hole he has ever played. He did not like the fact that you had a blind tee shot to a fairway with so many humps. I told him it was only blind the first time you play it. Personally, #3 was one of my favorite holes on the complex.

Why my buddy is a panelist for Golfweek is beyond me. I guess he wants everything in front of him and to never get a bad bounce or uneven lie in the fairway. I guess that sounds like your typical American golfer. WOW!

[Rory Connaughton]

I could play the Trails every day from here to kingdom come and be quite happy. I'm not crazy about the gap between 13 and 14 but 3-13 is as entertaining a stretch of holes as I can think of. I can see being uncomfortable with some of the blind shots but they are part of the thrill of the course.  There is a lot of soul in Trails.

Jim, guess your pal shouldn't bother going to GB&I to play - unless its to rate the K-Club:-)

[Michael George]

I don't know how #14 rewards bad playing.  If anything, it is the opposite.  If you go to the right, you have to play smart and play left in the collection area or you will make a big number.  Play stupid and go for the pin and you make a big number.  Same as #16 at Pacific Dunes.

I hit 3 wood just short both days and had a 25 yard chip to the green.  I actually thought it was much more playable than i had ever read.  Now, if you cannot chip, then it is a hard hole, but that can be true of most holes if you are a bad golfer.  

What did your friend say about #16 at Pacific Dunes?  How is this hole significantly different?

[Terry Lavin]

Well, to put it bluntly, your pal is an idiot.  Bandon Trails may "suffer" by comparison to the other three courses on the property, because the others are more consistent 1-18 and have more seductive eye candy.  It may not be viewed as kindly as the other three because no matter the weather conditions, it is a very difficult golf course.  If there's no wind or rain, the other three courses can come across as relatively easy because of the fairway widths, among other features, while BT is much more demanding off the tee, perhaps because it is more protected by the trees.  I can understand people not liking 14; I count myself in that camp.  I guess I'm more accepting of quirk on an old golf course than a new one.  I'm not saying that is a particularly defensible position, but it's the way I feel.  15 is a great hole, with a tough second shot that can lead to a tough third shot.  16 is a little goofy with the green that has so much right to left slope, 17 is a great par 3 hole and 18...well, I just don't like anything about 18.  To me, it's the weakest of 72 holes on the entire property.  It's almost as if they ran out of land, sort of like 18 at Cypress.  It's a very unsatisfying finish, in my amateur opinion, which ain't worth much.  So if you want the bulldozer, I'll listen to some opinions about 18, but not 1-18.  There's a lot of great holes among the other 16 out there...

[George Pazin]

I messed #18 up if I remember. But overall, it was my #1 at Bandon. Haven't played OM yet.

A very wise student of gca, current USGA Rules expert, also had BT as his #1, if I recall correctly, so you are in good company.

I don't know the gentleman in question referenced in the opening post, but my friends and I are prone to making bold, over the top statements to get things flowing at the 19th. Maybe that's what he was doing.

[Garland Bayley]

... He said they should bulldoze and start over. ...

That's a pretty useless statement without any explanation attached. Often times the explanation will expose the weakness of the reviewer as opposed to the weakness of the course.

Thanks Garland. I guess if you read the entire post you would have seen he said there were too many quirky bounces. I will find out what holes he is referring too, but he said he hit a drive straight down the middle only to find it in a bunker twice and then his playing partner hit it way left only to find his ball in the middle of the fairway. I told him rub of the green and course knowledge make for interesting rounds of golf.

I see, he is a line of instinct guy, not a line of charm guy. 'Nuf said.

[Jim Franklin]

I don't know how #14 rewards bad playing.  If anything, it is the opposite.  If you go to the right, you have to play smart and play left in the collection area or you will make a big number.  Play stupid and go for the pin and you make a big number.  Same as #16 at Pacific Dunes.

I hit 3 wood just short both days and had a 25 yard chip to the green.  I actually thought it was much more playable than i had ever read.  Now, if you cannot chip, then it is a hard hole, but that can be true of most holes if you are a bad golfer.  

What did your friend say about #16 at Pacific Dunes?  How is this hole significantly different?

I asked him about this hole too and he didn't have a problem with it which shocked me from his reaction to the other holes.

[Jud_T]

It may not be viewed as kindly as the other three because no matter the weather conditions, it is a very difficult golf course.

I'm not sure I agree with this Terry.  Aside from the fact that Trails is more sheltered from the high summer winds, I've found the course very playable with my mediocre game, much more so than BD.  This is born out in the ratings/slopes: BT  73.7/133,  BD 74.1/143.  And that's from the tips.  From one box in it's quite manageable (71.1, 129).