[Tom_Doak]

I visited Seminole several times in the 1980's, but haven't been back since Brian Silva did his "Ross restoration" there.  The bunkers they had in the 80's looked a lot more like the 1931 photo, than the bunkers today.

Pete Dye always swore that Dick Wilson changed a lot of the bunkering when the course was put back into play after WW II, but I don't know if Pete ever saw the course before that.  [He was born in 1925 in Ohio ... ]   Certainly, though, it's possible that the edging of the bunkers changed considerably while the course was out of play for 2-3 years, so it's probable that Wilson had to do a fair amount of work.

I do remember an old article, I think from Silva's restoration, where the superintendent said they found a layer of black soil in some of the bunkers that was from someone growing tomatoes in the bunkers during the war.  It struck a chord, because one of my parents' friends from Holland had grown up next to Royal Hague and said they did the same thing there during the Nazi occupation.

[Sean_Tully]

Sean,

Interesting stuff.

Tom Paul and I once had a long telephone conversation where we tried to brainstorm around the story that there was at least one if not two other prominent architects considered for the Seminole job besides Ross.  Given his work at Indian Creek, I had always assumed Flynn was one of them (though Tom and Wayne have no record of it and it doesn't appear in their tome).  Perhaps Robert Hunter was the other?

To be clear, I am speculating that Hunter could have met with Ross and discussed what they were doing in CA and showed Ross some photos etc.  Hunter was on vacation for the most part, but was playing golf and most likely meeting with close friends. I would have to say that Hunter was more than busy in CA at the time, and I don't think he would compete against Ross for a job--he held Ross in very high esteem. I would be looking into another architect, my attempt is trying to come up with some ideas on how those bunkers took shape.

I have one more source that I am trying to track down, fingers crossed.

Tully

[PCCraig]

I do remember an old article, I think from Silva's restoration, where the superintendent said they found a layer of black soil in some of the bunkers that was from someone growing tomatoes in the bunkers during the war.  It struck a chord, because one of my parents' friends from Holland had grown up next to Royal Hague and said they did the same thing there during the Nazi occupation.

Tom,

Interesting point/post. Just curious, but is there something about bunkers that make it an attractive place to plant tomatoes?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

Most of MacKenzie's work in America was 1929 or later, hence I don't believe that Ross copied his bunker design style in America.

Patrick,

The majority of MacKenzie's work in North America was not done post 1928, it was actually a pretty even split.  
This list is based on dates of construction.

Dates of construction are meaningless since those dates can extend over a long period of time.  
Dates of completion/opening day are the primary measure of when the design of a golf course comes into being.  

PRE 1929:
MPCC Dunes, Pebble 8 & 13, Cypress, Meadow, Redlands, Melrose, California, Lake Merced, Valley, Pasatiempo

Redlands, California Gc, Lake Merced, MPCC Dunes, Pebble 8 & 13 are all Revisions of existing courses and not AM originals.

The bulk of AM's designs were done post 1929

POST 1928:
Union League, Claremont, Ohio State Scarlet & Gray, Crystal Downs, Michigan, Sharp Park, Bayside, Augusta, Sacramento

There may be no evidence that Ross copied MacKenzie's bunker style, but surely he was aware of it, as well as some of the other prominent Architects that work working out West.  

What evidence can you cite to support that the claim that he was aware of it.
Did he travel to California between 1927 and 1928-29 ?
Perhaps Brad Klein, who's intimately familiar with Ross's travels could enlighten us.

Ross was designing courses in California in 1923 years before MacKenzie began his efforts in America.
Before that, he was designing courses in Colorado in 1918

Whose work was he familiar with ?
What sites did he visit /

And he was certainly familiar with George Thomas' book.

Thomas's book wasn't published until 1927.
How do you know that Ross was familiar with it by 1928-9 ? 

Any honest architect of any specialty will attest that exposure to previously unfamiliar styles has an affect on you, either consciously or subconsciously.


What was the extent of Ross's exposure in California (MacKenzie) prior to 1929 ?
What sites had he visited ?

[JC Jones]

Pete Dye always swore that Dick Wilson changed a lot of the bunkering when the course was put back into play after WW II, but I don't know if Pete ever saw the course before that.  [He was born in 1925 in Ohio ... ]   Certainly, though, it's possible that the edging of the bunkers changed considerably while the course was out of play for 2-3 years, so it's probable that Wilson had to do a fair amount of work.

Tom,

Tom Paul had also told me that about Pete Dye and his assertion that Wilson changed a lot of the bunkering at Seminole.  That, however, is in direct conflict with what Mr. von Hagge told me; and he was the one doing the work while Wilson was in the locker room drinking with Dunphy.
The timeline you put forward helps a lot in understanding when Pete Dye would have first seen Seminole and what he would have seen when he did.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

Most of MacKenzie's work in America was 1929 or later, hence I don't believe that Ross copied his bunker design style in America.

I would have to disagree to a point. More a difference in our point of view as biased by our given location. Most of AM's work was done in the East after 1929, and before 1929 most of his work was done in the West. 1929, is pretty close to a middle point for all of his work in North America.

I stand by my statement that most of AM's work in America was done in 1929 and later.
While the line of demarcation between East and West is correct, statistically, numerically, my statement is accurate, although I recognize your distinction.

Ross came out West for work at the Broadmoor in Colorado(opened 1918) in and in 1922 at Beresford in California. It appears that Ross came back to California in either 1932 or '33, this has yet to be verified. So given what we know about Ross at this point, he did not see the bunker style in question in CA.

What other courses in the East were building bunkers like this in 1929? Can't say that I have seen any yet.

Wannamoisett for one.
Built in 1914 and revised in 1926, there's evidence of that style of bunker on some of the holes.

Brad Klein would seem to be the go to source for obtaining early photos (pre 1929) of courses in the East with this style or flavor.
At Seminole they can seem more pronounced due to the flat land between the two massive dunes.

This style of bunker started showing up in California in the mid1920's with Bell and MacKenzie leading the way. So, how does this style of bunker find its way to Florida?

Donald Ross would seem like the likely carrier pre-dating the mid-20's.
Again, Brad Klein might have photos of some of Ross's earlier Florida designs
Ross began working in Florida in 1916 and must have designed almost three dozen courses in Florida prior to 1929.

I wonder if Brad Klein or anyone else has some early photos of Palm Beach Country Club, a 1917 Ross design just down the road from Seminole.
Gulf Stream and Delray Beach were just a little further south and preceeded Seminole as well

I do know that one person that keeps getting overlooked just happened to be in the area in 1927 and possibly 1928--Robert Hunter.  Hunter frequently made golf trips to Pinehurst and the Palm Beach area from as early as 1909. Interesting timing in that Cypress Point would have been under construction in that 1927-28 time frame. Even more interesting is that Hunter and Ross were rather close friends and could very well have gone over the Seminole course and talked shop together.
I will be perfectly clear--- this is purely speculation on my part using what I have been able to uncover through my research and that of others.

Don't forget that Hunter's book, "The Links" was first published in 1926.
I wonder if Ross had visited Alwoodley.
Some of the bunkers there had that rolled up style/flavor.
"The Spirit of St Andrews" might hold a clue as well.

Speculation is especially fun when you pursue it and come to conclude that your speculation had grains or boulders of truth within.

Seminole was also one of Ross's later Florida courses.
It would be interesting to see the bunker styles on his earlier courses.
Agreed

Seminole does occupy unusual topography for South Florida so perhaps the comparison should only be with Ross bunkers on earlier courses in South Florida.

As to the look of those bunkers, I'd posit that they're almost impossible to maintain.

South Florida and Seminole get tremendous rains, not including hurricanes and tropical storms.

Those upper bunker faces have to wash away when the heavy and torrential rains come in.

Therefore, maintaining them has to be both difficult and expensive.

In regards to the bunkers, I too agree that they would have required a lot of maintenance by todays standards to get them back into play. Just not so sure how concerned they would have been given our over the top maintenance standards for a hazard. At Meadow Club we average just over 50inches of rain over eight months of the year and we just had a winter of 70 inches, so I am very familiar with washouts. There is only so much work we can do besides cleaning up debris and working on bunkers.  It can take us little over a week to repair all of our bunkers(96) given a storm that drops anywhere from 5-10inches of rain. Not many golfers venture out during these periods and the ones that do understand that conditions are not the same.

I look at it as more of an issue of labor. Even with the depression and the financial threat it held over most businesses, there was always a labor force that could be depended upon. WWII took that labor force away and golf courses struggled with additional reductions in membership and revenue and the courses suffered.

An available labor force is great if you can afford it.
The great depression certainly had an impact on the membership at Seminole

And, I don't believe that there's much difference in their function in 1931 and today.

Balls at the perimeter of the greens roll down the edges into the bunkers toward their centers.
From the looks of those bunkers, the function would appear to be the same.

And, balls hitting into the high sand faces would likewise roll down to the centers, not unlike today when balls hitting the grass slopes do the same.

I think Mother Nature has conspired to deprive us of such neat looking bunkers, but, I can tell you, from too many experiences, that the bunkers function more than adequately in their present configurations.

I agree, to a point, having never played over the course I look at those original bunkers and they look far more imposing to me, the current ones not as much. After that, they are the same.

I'd agree that the look was far more intimidating than today's look, but, I can assure you that their function remains extremely efficient.

Tully

[Patrick_Mucci]

I visited Seminole several times in the 1980's, but haven't been back since Brian Silva did his "Ross restoration" there.  The bunkers they had in the 80's looked a lot more like the 1931 photo, than the bunkers today.

I'd agree.

A key to the answer to the question may be the photo in the locker room depicting Claude Harmon's course record shot on March 12, 1947..
I believe he played with Toney Penna that day, but, I can't remember who rounded out his group.

I believe the photo is PRE-Wilson, since the 18th hole is still the original to the right of the 17th green.
When I next visit, I'll take a more carefull look at the bunkering.

One always has to wonder, how much of the style of a bunker is changed due to maintainance issues ?

Pete Dye always swore that Dick Wilson changed a lot of the bunkering when the course was put back into play after WW II, but I don't know if Pete ever saw the course before that.  [He was born in 1925 in Ohio ... ]   Certainly, though, it's possible that the edging of the bunkers changed considerably while the course was out of play for 2-3 years, so it's probable that Wilson had to do a fair amount of work.

The PRE-Wilson photo in the locker room, compared to post Wilson photos would clarify the extend of Wilson's work.

I had been told that Wilson ONLY altered the 18th hole, but the before and after photos can confirm or refute that

I do remember an old article, I think from Silva's restoration, where the superintendent said they found a layer of black soil in some of the bunkers that was from someone growing tomatoes in the bunkers during the war.  It struck a chord, because one of my parents' friends from Holland had grown up next to Royal Hague and said they did the same thing there during the Nazi occupation.

[Bruce Katona]

While the bunker placement is similar pre versus post renovation, an isssue that players and contributers sometimes forget is: over time appearances change and features soften due to the constant splash/tracking of sand into and out of bunkers and onto putting surfaces and surrounds.  Additionally, if the grounds crew modifield slightly their maintenance routine annually to make things easier form them, that would encourage additonal softenin of abrupt and harsh bunker facings, noses and edges.

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

Just another "sympathetic" restoration.
None of the architects I know that specialize in restoration of the old courses would believe those are Ross bunkers.

[Mike_Young]

Just another "sympathetic" restoration.
None of the architects I know that specialize in restoration of the old courses would believe those are Ross bunkers.

Don't all architects "specialize int he restoration of old courses"?   

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Thank you for the picture. I agree with Pat. Those bunkers would be very hard and expensive to maintain in what i relfer to as the gulf coast climate witch also includes the Atlantic side of Florida. Our rains during the summer end to be .25 to 1.0 inch within 30 minutes to one hour. It would wash out those bunkers on a regular basis. Of course if the course was closed from May to November then who cares. lol

[jonathan_becker]

up close from this past spring

[David Harshbarger]

up close from this past spring

This is the dorm room print version of the photo from 1931.  Sure as some one said it plays the same, but those bunkers in the original photo have the depth and texture of a real Van Gogh, lashing up at the green with the fury of the sea.  These lap like the waves in the kiddie pool; flat, and $15 in the student union.

[Neil Regan]

...I do remember an old article, I think from Silva's restoration, where the superintendent said they found a layer of black soil in some of the bunkers that was from someone growing tomatoes in the bunkers during the war.  It struck a chord, because one of my parents' friends from Holland had grown up next to Royal Hague and said they did the same thing there during the Nazi occupation.

Tom,

  This thread from a 8! years ago links to an article which might be the one you remember. It was watermelons not tomatoes.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=7135.0

Original Post:

If you want to see a great article with color pictures of major work done at Seminole in 1981, check out this article:

And The Sand Runneth Over
by BILL WHITAKER, Golf Course Superintendent,
Seminole Golf Club, North Palm Beach, Florida
http://turf.lib.msu.edu/1980s/1984/840709.pdf

An excerpt:

… In 1981 several of the 193 bunkers at the Seminole Golf Club, in North Palm Beach, Florida, had between two and four feet of sand! Over 50 years of bunker sand accumulation had occurred. Even though digging out this amount of sand would be a sizeable task, the Board of Governors decided to go ahead and re-do the greenside bunkers during the summer of 1981.Their intention was to bring the depths back to conform to the architect’s original plans. Donald Ross designed and built this course in 1929, and it was obvious to me, from studying his plans, that no sand had ever been removed from the bunkers. I was faced with moving approximately 9,000 tons of sand. We rented two nine yard dump trucks and one Gradeall with an operator. …

Another excerpt:

It was amazing to view a sand profile three feet thick that had built up since 1929. Both bunkers behind number 14 green were very carefully hand-dug to the bottom. As I stood there looking at the layers of old sand, I couldn’t help but wonder how deep this bunker sand was when Pearl Harbor was attacked in 1941. One of the old timers, who had worked for the club for 41 years, explained the black ring about six inches from the bottom. He said, “That’s from growing watermelons in the traps during World War II.” The club was closed from 1942 through 1945.

.

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